[campaign's Finale:]served Cold:

[*Loki_999]

Gah, the permadeath is just too much of a risk. I know Purity has already sworn to fight the Shaper but i've put a too much time/effort into her to risk a level 30 character coming along and taking her out in one hit.

Perhaps if it was only permadeath if you died to monsters then i would risk it... but Purity would get maced in a couple of rounds by any level 20+ character, not questions asked.

Sorry Duke, but i think this needed more thinking about.

Besides, 12 midnight? Thats 3am, wouldn't be online anyway.

[*Reptiller]

//Just a FYI, if you were defeated "mechanically" it doesn't mean that the person/mob actually kills you off. All depends on the characters, permadeath can't be really enforced on "mechanical" defeat.

[*DM_Duke]

I appriciate that some players were confused about the time, I made a mistake and chose to announce it in the wrong manner, what I quite clearly meant was TONIGHT, at 12AM GMT, So yes, thats Sunday Morning 00:00 if you really want to be exact.

I appologise once more for the confusion and the mess, the event "is" happening tonight and there "will" be compensation for those who were confused at the time. No, it wont be in the form of shiny epics ;).

As to the Permadeath, that was very clearly mentioned first and formost when the event was announced already. Thus this rule wont be changing, those who get involved do so at their own risk.

If you do not wish your character to permadie then quite simply, dont get involved. No one is forcing this upon you, though by all means I have absoleutley no intention of alienating players simply because they chose not to be apart of it, this is simply a major event, with clear cut rules.

This has been planned for some time now, it shall continue as proceeded, if one isnt willing to participate, you do not have to leave a message saying "can you not just adjust it to be fair?"

The answer:

Risk and reward my player base, you want the reward? You have to take risks sometimes. Heroes are not invulnerable, they earn the titles they gain from actions that were difficult and challanging, not a walk-in-the-park.

Now with respect intended, some of you aernt high level and that is fair, and understandable. I quite clearly stated there would be more than one way to fight if one chose to participate and I see little reason to repeat myself on how, the rules are posted at the topic's posting.

As for the time, there was no other time that the event could have started, im afraid this is simply one of those situations where there will be no compramise. Make do with what you have been given or simply dont take part, I never once said it was compulsory for a player to be involved.

If you dont want to get your character killed, theres a simple logic to that: Dont stand in the firing line.

Real world or fantasy, the fact of the matter is, when an army is comming to invade your home, you either fight or you run.

So if you aernt physically or mentally strong enough to endure the battle and the concept of death looming over you, dont take part. You werent forced to anyway.

There will be other events, both gentle and harsher than this one. Just because your not involved in this event does not mean to say your not involved at all.

[*Loki_999]

Ah, Duke, probably my post came across as too whingy.

Reptillier pointed a way around the permadeath although I presume the DMs would enforce it if you did loose using stats instead of real combat (?).

I appreciate the issue about timing, you can't please everyone in a 24 hour world.

As for risk vs. reward... i appreciate all that you said, but if i'm going to risk a character that i have invested weeks of time into i would be wanting a reward of a +million sword of awesomeness if i succeed. If i was a level 30 character make that a +billion sword and a kiss from every DM! :P

I just can't risk the time i have invested in my characters... maybe if i get bored with them then i would be willing.

I know some people will risk it anyway... maybe many people, and i haven't been around here long enough to really fully appreciate how these DM events work and what people are willing to risk. If i'm online at the time I may roll up a character called "Innocent Bystander" just to observe what is going on. :D

Overall, personal choice i know and sorry if it sounded like i was bitchin.

[*Ceremorph]

Gah, the permadeath is just too much of a risk.

I'd like to take a moment to point something out about the entire "Permadeath in an event" issue. Now, I'm not 100% certain if Duke's concept on it is the same as mine, although I do know that Deekin views things the same way as I do.

What it really comes down to is a way of telling people "yes, you need to take this seriously". Far too often, an event will be running and someone (or someones) will decide "Oh, screw this conversation that is designed to forward the quest for everyone in the party. I'm going to run over and stab Graz'zt in the face!". Letting people know that an event is "permadeath on" simply puts a bit of fear into the concept, where the consequences of doing something amazingly stupid and suicidal are more than just "That's okay, I'll just respawn in the mortuary and go level in the Abyss". It's not so that we can spawn a basilisk, you roll a one, and the three months you've invested into this character are all moot. It's all about simply playing your character as they really should be, rather than using respawn as a "let's see what this does" mechanism.

None of the DMs on our server want to see your character die (unless you're one of Lutemasta's characters. Everybody wants to see them die! :lol: ), and we're not going to try to find ways to kill off characters just for shits and giggles; that's a certain way to lose players, and even worse, to make players not want to take part in DM events. And the same holds even more true for situations where PvP comes into play; any instances of "if you beat me in combat I'm dead forever" will ALWAYS be issues worked out between the players themselves.

It's actually funny... back in the 80s when I was playing PnP, every MINUTE of a character's life held the possibility of permanent death. I think what it all comes down to is the impact of videogames on the collective consciousness. If you died in Zork or Donkey Kong, you had to start over from the beginning; now we're used to save points, and playing games that even expect a "try this; if it fails, I'll just do something different in 3 minutes when I'm back in this exact same spot. Now... you kids, get off my lawn, I want to crochet in peace.

[*Lutemasta]

None of the DMs on our server want to see your character die (unless you're one of Lutemasta's characters. Everybody wants to see them die!  ),

I love you to.
:wub:

[*DM_Duke]

Exactly my point, you cant just try to punch The Shaper in the face. You cant piss on the dabus and expect the lady of pain not to piss on you in turn with a shower of blades.

The point is, sometimes players get too cocky for their own good. They think too much of their characters and not realistically just where their limit is. The limit is simple, your char will never EVER be able to handle Graz'zt in a million years and you would be damn lucky to even get to flung a snotball at him without being brutalised, sodomised and killed for it.

Some things you just "DONT" do.

It doesnt matter how stupid your character is, if they're stupid enough to do it you were fully aware of the consequences the moment you entered that event.

Now... that might come across as angsty and aggressive, but read closley and you'll understand what the key point of it all is:

Common Sense.

Even in fantasy, a character knows when NOT to piss off a balor. Or when NOT to upset a Black Dragon. You just know these things because its evident from first impression alone, the moment you start a fight, your gonna get owned, badly.

So if you want to avoid being permakilled, you dont do it, you dont put yourself into a possition where your char is DEFINATLEY going to be wtf-pwned. Because no matter what you think, anime-esque "force-of-will" aka: my character can defy you because I refuse to give up, is not going to work in a westernised fantasy where realism is set by the big sword that can cleave you in half.

You dont Duck with things that can easily Duck with you, so dont do it. Unless you are 100% willing to accept instant permadeath, your obviously too cocky for your own good. Sometimes a player has to learn the hard way that "shit hurts and armour wont stop it."

In no way am I saying that players always have to face a situation where they're 100% gonna die, hell no. But sometimes, you just walk into it, and you cant excuse anyone but yourself for making that choice.

DM's are however, very forgiving, but only so much as to say "you didnt do that, take it back." Because if you chose to do it anyway, your not going to get a change of mind where suddenly the DM is more than content to let you pwn the lady of pain. There are some mobs players simply cant best, no matter what they do, as I will repeat for the last time.

Anyway, thats my point made and done, the simple conclusion:

Some actions will get you killed, some mobs cant be beaten, some enemies are simply too hard to take down in the first strike.
You are a hero, but even heroes have to know the difference between being bad ass and being stupid.

Even a hero is smart enough to know when you dont piss on the wrong lawn.

[*Loki_999]

Well, thanks for the clarification guys. It almost makes sense now. Sure, i remember in PnP when permadeath was normal, and i agree with Cenomorph's comment about the modern gaming thing of, oh well, i died, reload from save.

But, on the other hand, i have matured as well as the games. When i was young i could afford to spend hours restarting time and time again (playing on the ZX Spectrum games like Jet Set Willy, mapping out the whole god damned mansion, only to find the day after i finished it Crash magazine published the whole thing)... but these days I am old and wizened, and every hour lost brings me an hour closer to erm... permadeath!

So, its not surprising my attitude is similar to that of the modern generation of gamers. ;)

[*Azulfae]

At the end of the day I can accept that the reward for involvement in this plot is a level, when the PC I will be using is already max level, and the risk is permadeath.

Some would say, why join in especially when you have the build of character that is most likely to be infront taking all the hits for the party.

I would say, levels don't make you epic, gear doesn't make you epic, it's the day to day tit for tat, the conversations, the relationships and risks you take that make others think they might loose their friend. You are only going to get them in a permadeath DM event like this. There are certain PC's who are predictable and who I know will step up if I step up with them. There are certain people who are going to make every decision informedly and with the bigger picture in mind and when those people stick together and play the game right the odds are far better.

Permadeath does not mean you are going to die. I don't intend to at all but the fear is going to be there because if I, or anybody else doesn't play this by the numbers were are all fooked.

I've been here before and walked away the only survivor of a party of ten, ten PC's who were played together from level 1 over a couple of years and got utterly taken down by an opposing faction. I cannot tell you how distressing that was but the memories are far greater than having played an empty epic character that never does anything at all.

This kind of event is so serious I'll kill my own if they put the greater party at risk. It's events like this you see the real characters because the immersion becomes full.

You think the pressure of playing your PC in a permadeath event is heavy, imagine the pressure on the DM's running it.

[*draken57]

My opinion if your not willing to risk it don't do it. I currently have a role play plot going down with one of my characters that = perma death if i FAIL!

I have put a lot of time into my characters and effort into making them a part of the IC player community. But two things happen either the plots get more and more epic with DM involvement with greater and greater reward. Or your character die's from lack of being able to handle the challenges.

And greater and greater reward does not mean being lvl 30 with uber i pwn you gear. It means possible your character fades into NPC hoodum or ends up as a really nasty boss to fight in a plane some where for those that wanna get some good exp.

What goal does your character have. Is he/she a hero looking to do the right thing regardless of the risk. Or is he/she the hero that squirms when the true test comes up.

Characters and character concepts are a dime a dozen. But the character that shines in the hearts of the player base is Priceless.