Troubles With Rebuilding My Half-fiend

[*Shotgunbunny]

Hi folks,

So I've been playing a half-fiend warlock on here. I took warlock because I'd never played one, but... I think it's kinda boring, actually. :P
I've been putting off rerolling as a sorcerer/eldritch knight type thing and now I'm kinda bummed out. The half-fiend subrace has been replaced with the Half-outsider template class! No biggy, right? Well, big biggy.

First thing I noticed is that the half-fiend template class is restricted to evil, even though the subrace definitely wasn't! I get that this is accurate lorewise but I definitely don't want to suddenly make this character evil.

So then, mechanical issues! Now, I haven't played a template class before, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding...
But I'll want to take 6 levels in the Half-Outsider class, which means my build misses out on 9 regular class levels? This puts a horrible restriction on what kind of builds you can make, doesn't it? I'm not sure I can even make the build I wanted to use now. Furthermore, I now have to pick the tiefling subrace to get the character to look the same way, even though tiefling is awful with Sorcerer.

I made a test character to see how this template class thing works, but then I realized I'd need to level up before I can pick that class. What the? You basically have to grind out some levels before your character becomes who they really are? That's seems pretty weird to me...

This all seems very restrictive and convoluted, I'm breaking my head over how to recreate this character, whereas the subrace was easy peasy. I kinda wish I'd remade this character a month earlier...

[*rapsam2003]

The advantages gained by the Half-Outside template balances the loss of 9 levels.

[*Lucadia]

Its not if your a caster. Sure, you can take 21 levels of pure caster, but it really hampers your options for multi classing such if you want go eldrich knight, of if you wanted be wizard/swashbuckler or any other combination that uses that int mod.

Might as well go Succubi, you get amazing dex, cha, Ac and /higher/ caster levels while leaving you more flexible. Plus you know, looking like a fiend and better benefits .

So no, your 9 levels of half outsider does not balance out. For you even get your wings you have take all 9 levels instead it should been automatic option for 3 ecl and sub-par stats so if a player didnt feel like taking the prc, they could still feel like a half fiend.

I mean its not like your running around with "tiefling" in your bio when obvious your an incubus subrace

[*Strawberry Jam]

The advantages gained by the Half-Outside template balances the loss of 9 levels.

No it isn't, a few minor stats means nothing to a sorcerer if it takes away 9 levels. The new race just isn't made for casters.



To shotgunbunny your best bet is to reroll as a tiefling, even with the cha penalty it will be better than half fiend sorcerer.

[*rapsam2003]

Its not if your a caster.

How silly that all race/template combos don't work well for all classes...

Might as well go Succubi, you get amazing dex, cha, Ac and /higher/ caster levels while leaving you more flexible. Plus you know, looking like a fiend and better benefits .

Yes, might as well, if you want to be a caster.

No it isn't, a few minor stats means nothing to a sorcerer if it takes away 9 levels. The new race just isn't made for casters.

How's this an issue, really? It may not make OP happy, but how is it an issue?

[*Lucadia]

Probably cause your commenting on something you not tried playing :D?

The intent was help him with a rebuild into a caster.

If you want comparison?

Tanari succubi/incubi at max caster levels loses a total of 4 (they have 9/10 progression and all those goodies))

Half fiend on the other hand no longer even grants a cha bonus (which . . why? that dont make since. They are supposed to be aluring ) while you lose 9 caster levels right off the bat. Thats a whole 5 levels of difference.

[*Strawberry Jam]

How's this an issue, really? It may not make OP happy, but how is it an issue?

Because obviously the player can't play their character how they would like. Race and class aren't supposed to be tied together.

"you have fiendish parents therefore you're no good at magic"

You might not have any issues, good for you?

[*Lucadia]

Theres not incentive to go half fiend unless your melee. and the stats only fit for certain niches. Being half mortal , there should be option to be just as good as that half too, not be hampered by it.

I know a lot hard work is going into the new system, but the half fiends and half cels could been given similar stat adjustments say like averials and then give +2 ecl while adding options for customization.

IE Half fiend could easily been +2 dex +2 int +2 cha, then option for wings or wingless for 2 ecl. Then an option to take a half fiend prc that further enhances their blood line .It given players option to be the race they want without the fuss or chosing how many levels they wanted sacrafice for their build.

[*Ceremorph]

IE Half fiend could easily been +2 dex +2 int +2 cha, then option for wings or wingless for 2 ecl. Then an option to take a half fiend prc that further enhances their blood line .It given players option to be the race they want without the fuss or chosing how many levels they wanted sacrafice for their build.

The template class allows for diversity as to what the other "half" is. As a race, half-fiend can only be half-human, but as a template class you can be a half-fiend elf or halfling or orc or gnoll or yuan-ti. Giving greater RP potential.

Down the line, I may consider making a caster-progression version of this, but I can promise that a lot of goodies will be lost in exchange for those caster levels (my next project is the vampire rework, which will give some idea as to where I'm going with this).

[*Ceremorph]

Race and class are absolutely tied together, some races are better than others at certain classes. You can be a half-outsider and be a 21st level wizard. Complaints beyond that only occur if you're trying to tick off boxes on your build.

And the previous half-fiend race was not set up well and was massively overpowered for the ECL you got.

Since all of this was already discussed when the race was introduced... *shrugs* You can make wonderful epic-level casters with tieflings, baatezu, and tanar'ri and continue to play a "fiendish" character. And the reason the legacy half-fiend race didn't have an alignment restriction is because the NWN engine doesn't allow for alignment restrictions to be placed on races; you'd have to script something to prevent the character from being played or to force an alignment change.

HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure if you take the fiendish bloodline feat, you can still qualify for the half-fiend outsider as long as you're not good.