An Iinteresting Discussion Would Like Staff's View

[*Product of Void]

Was IG and an interesting topic came up. Devils and demons can they die?

I always figured if you slayed them on the material plane they get banned from there for a set period of time. Though if you go to their home plane and kill them they die.

Then you have that one demon that returned from death as an undead evil thingie. So can they die?

the concept of the bloodwars was seen as pointless due to they did not die, or perhaps due to their ranks replenished quickly, or seeing its always ending in a draw.

Do the things slayed in the abyss truly die? or just get displaced?

Never read all of dragon lance though I remember The golden eyed guy going to another plane to kill something.

Also recall Drizzt sending a demon away for 100 years for slaying them on the material plane.

Another concept was all souls they acquire either fuel things or become a minor devil/demon eventually increasing in rank if they survive.

I R confused...

[*Swiftbow]

Continuing our discussion from ingame...

Always was my interpretation that killing a being's physical body will kill it. A demon or devil summoned to the Prime is usually projecting a sort of avatar there, just as a Prime can use an Astral spell to send a copy of himself to the Planes. Killing the copy just sends the person back to their body.

However, an actual Planar transfer, such as a Gate or portal, transfers the being's physical body, thereby putting it's life at risk.

Devils, demons, celestials, and others are also originally (in most cases) the souls of petitioners, who have earned greater status through whatever tests their plane presents. Killing one of these beings (while difficult) will cause it to merge with its home plane, just as any petitioner's soul would.

Exceptions exist, of course... some of these beings can propagate in more traditional ways as well, for one. Some are "fallen" varieties, having changed alignments and form, and others are of course deific.

[*Ceremorph]

However, an actual Planar transfer, such as a Gate or portal, transfers the being's physical body, thereby putting it's life at risk.

Actually, according to the Book of Vile Darkness (I think), a demon/devil who is summonned by someone else, even through a gate, cannot have his essence destroyed on a Prime. However, if the demon travels to that prime of his own accord (plane shift, creating a gate of his own, etc.) he does become vulnerable to true death. I believe the same applies to other outer planes as well.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Demons/Devils birth and death in short:

When a person of lawful evil dies that holds no deity, made pacts with devils (that leads them to lose their soul), has badass deity they follows that trades them to devils for something flashy, they become souls that are sent to planes of according alignments... now once they get to the Nine Hells, the existing devils there torment, twist and torture the souls until they practically forget everything of their earlier petty existence and turning to something purely vile, now you have lesser devils.

Demons on other hand merely get born from the very chaotic force of Abyss itself. Souls only rarely if ever become tormented to demons in Abyss, unless demons have made pacts with the mortal souls to gain their soul (which is just about always carried out when they die).


Demon/Devil can't truly be killed outside their own planes unless they travel there on their own (rather than being summoned). Now it is a great shame to get beaten by mortals anywhere so they aren't without fear, especially in Devils hierarchy it can lead to demotions, which usually means butt loads of torturing until their shape gets changed to some of the lesser fiends, on other hand it's actually same for promotions so... keeps them in line :P

Being banished for set time is also something possible, at least it was in earlier editions, I'm not actually familiar if that still stands in 3rd edition or not.

Anyhow, while they might not die, they don't actively look for getting beaten, since while they can manage any simple or complex forms of torturing the mortals might even manage to imagine in their wildest dreams, they will face only worse in their home planes for the shame they've created. They aren't without fear, but the fear is rarely directed at Mortals or anything they could ever do to them. Understand that these are the very extremes of evil forces after all you're talking about, all your evil ideas are merely inspired by these true evils ;)

[*Lost and not Found]

PLANESCAPE
Faces of Evil: The Fiends

"EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT FIENDS (BUT WERE AFRAID TO ASK)".

I've seen it happen too many times. A berk finds out how much damage it takes to kill a fiend and figures that's all he needs. Then he heads off to the Lower Planes - and is never heard from again. When will these leatherheads learn? The fiends aren't just lists of numbers. They're creatures that think, eat, dream, breed, struggle, and evolve - in short, creatures that live. They're part of a larger society of political treachery and desperate survival, a culture of disturbing aesthetics and violent beliefs. And only a blood who studies it all has a hope of ducking the fiends, defeating them - or just understanding them.

This 96-page PLANESCAPE accessory, written for players and Dungeon Masters of all levels, is the ultimate guide to the fiends of the Lower Planes - the malevolent monsters that wage the Blood War, terrorize mortals, and befoul the multiverse. But whereas other guides focus on statistics and combat, Faces of Evil delves into the physiology of the fiends, exploring the dark forces that shape every detail of their lives. How are they born? What do they eat? How do they deal with others? And just what makes them so - well fiendish?

Faces of Evil is a must for any AD&D campaign that features these vile creatures of death and destruction.



Get your hands to it, read it. *Coughs.*Click the link in the signaure.*Coughs.*

As for the banishment, according to this book, it not just a simple time out for a hundred years. Though the Fiends would want the mortal berks to think so.

[*cryptc]

Basicly the demon/devil turns up as a lowest ranked creature (lemure etc), but generally marked since they have prepared for the possibility... then it depends how much help they get from allies to get them back into shape (or even betrayed and left to fend for themselves)... so basicly a fiend could be ok again quickly or it could take a very very long time...

[*WhenWizardsWar]

On that note about beings diening and being subject to mystical things on other planes.

Shouldn't banishment work on virtually everyone in sigil since technically 80+% of people on sigiil are outsiders?.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Roughly 37% of Sigil population is still humans, 20% are planetouched, 10% are elves, 10% are halflings, 3% are dwarves and 20% other.

Also I believe technically Banishment/Dismissal would toss anyone not in their home plane back to there. The spells use term "Extraplanar" which by rules is explained like this:

Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

[*Ykhare]

On that note about beings diening and being subject to mystical things on other planes.

Shouldn't banishment work on virtually everyone in sigil since technically 80+% of people on sigiil are outsiders?.

Wasn't there some rule that after a few years or so your "home" plane shifted to wherever you had elected to reside ?

So while a whopping percent of Sigilians or their ancestors may have originated from outside at some point, all but the most newly arrived or those that are here while in transition between planes, won't be technically extraplanar.

[*Lost and not Found]

Shouldn't banishment work on virtually everyone in sigil since technically 80+% of people on sigiil are outsiders?.

The only way in or out of Sigil is through the portals that show up in the doorways, archways, windows, manholes, fire-places, and other openings found throughout the city. Nothing else - spells, magical items, innate powers, or anything else - gets a body into or out of the Cage. That's the way the Lady wants it.

The Planewalker's Handbook, page 9.

In otherwords, a berk cannot be 'summoned' to or 'banished' from the Cage. Once something get's inside the Cage, the only way to get rid of them is to add them into the Dead Book, or get them tossed through a portal leading out.