Now there was an idea given way back when. The idea was rare item crafting recipes. Rare recipes that drop from monsters that allow some enchantments that cannot be crafted any other way. And once the recipe is done, it item is used up rendering it useless.
Like I said, it was from awhile ago.
The Viability Of Crafting
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*R0ninknight
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
1-shot blueprints.... I can get behind that. Epic feats would be awesome, too (I suggested one but I'm not sure the engine can do it).
I heard epic crafters can add a fourth property? Is that true? Do the abilities of a material take up a property slot? I surely hope not.
Crafting will be great when I can afford to build bombs or other non-renewable resources. Right now its not that great. It would also be a balancing factor that allows more things if it was possible to make things that only the crafter can use- I can see the hesitation due to the fact that right now crafters toss items out to -everyone- when a combat feat usually only helps that specific character. Once that balance issue is addressed I think a lot more can be done.
So to combine the ideas.... a 1-shot blueprint of awesomeness that creates an item that, for whatever IC reason, is only fitted or usable by the crafter. If you craft, you now have a bit more balance on the powerbuilders; if you are not sell it to someone that is.
In reality there is something to be said for making your own things to use yourself. In DnD though making items and using them are on the same, mutually exclusive, spectrum. You are good at one or the other depending on which pole of the spectrum you're closer to. This has always felt very, very unrealistic to me because in RL I just plain know better. I've seen too many people build a weapon from scratch and then kick ass with it because that sort of item is what they focus on whether at the crafting table or at the tournament.
Perhaps some of these themes/uses can be attached to the Skill Focus feats? Right now requiring them is a ripoff. It just takes 2 more feats to do what everyone else in every other setting can do without the need for 2 more feats and while the materials are really, really cool they are not 'burn two precious feat slots' cool. The really high skill requirements make sense to me and I"m not sure why they are not considered 'enough'. Again- really cool effects that are too expensive on the crafter right now unless the system expands a lot or some sort of relief is given to offset the feat cost.
I heard epic crafters can add a fourth property? Is that true? Do the abilities of a material take up a property slot? I surely hope not.
Crafting will be great when I can afford to build bombs or other non-renewable resources. Right now its not that great. It would also be a balancing factor that allows more things if it was possible to make things that only the crafter can use- I can see the hesitation due to the fact that right now crafters toss items out to -everyone- when a combat feat usually only helps that specific character. Once that balance issue is addressed I think a lot more can be done.
So to combine the ideas.... a 1-shot blueprint of awesomeness that creates an item that, for whatever IC reason, is only fitted or usable by the crafter. If you craft, you now have a bit more balance on the powerbuilders; if you are not sell it to someone that is.
In reality there is something to be said for making your own things to use yourself. In DnD though making items and using them are on the same, mutually exclusive, spectrum. You are good at one or the other depending on which pole of the spectrum you're closer to. This has always felt very, very unrealistic to me because in RL I just plain know better. I've seen too many people build a weapon from scratch and then kick ass with it because that sort of item is what they focus on whether at the crafting table or at the tournament.
Perhaps some of these themes/uses can be attached to the Skill Focus feats? Right now requiring them is a ripoff. It just takes 2 more feats to do what everyone else in every other setting can do without the need for 2 more feats and while the materials are really, really cool they are not 'burn two precious feat slots' cool. The really high skill requirements make sense to me and I"m not sure why they are not considered 'enough'. Again- really cool effects that are too expensive on the crafter right now unless the system expands a lot or some sort of relief is given to offset the feat cost.
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*Mick64
- Posts: 490
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
It makes a lot of sense, actually. If you split your time between learning to make a thing an learning to use it, you'll be less good at using it then someone who spends 100% of their time on learning how to use it. To draw from real life examples.... most soldiers have never worked on a firearm assembly line. I'd bet most Formula 1 drivers might not even know how to change their oil. I've met a computer hardware engineer who still typed with only two fingers.wrote:In reality there is something to be said for making your own things to use yourself. In DnD though making items and using them are on the same, mutually exclusive, spectrum. You are good at one or the other depending on which pole of the spectrum you're closer to. This has always felt very, very unrealistic to me because in RL I just plain know better. I've seen too many people build a weapon from scratch and then kick ass with it because that sort of item is what they focus on whether at the crafting table or at the tournament.
On a balance standpoint, being able to craft has to come at a sacrifice of your combat prowess, or else everyone would be a crafter which kind of ruins the whole point of it, since everyone would be making their own stuff. This is the problem with crafter-only items : If they give more benefits over normal items then what could normally be gained by one epic feat, then suddenly being a crafter also means you're better at fighting then the non-crafter.... and then the next day everyone's a crafter. So either the feat cost has to be extraordinarily high, or the personal item has to be barely stronger then comparable non-personal items. I don't think either possibility is very satisfactory.
Also remember that you don't -have- to pick every single crafting feat. The really special materials that require skill focus are supposed to be for people who go the extra step. You can still craft most things without them. If you want to be able to craft -everything- though, it should come at a significant cost.
And finally, yes properties granted by special materials do count against the enchantment limit. Their advantage is that they most often give stronger stats then what you can get with regular enchantments.
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*Sinlinara
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Miraie's suggestion reminds me of the Artificer Class feature that allows them to basically disenchant magical properties from items and store the magic from it in the form of an essence crystal of a value associated with the gold cost of enchantment itself. Artificers can then use the essence in place of actually using up their own gold to create an entirely new item.
(Just throwing it out there, and not just because I would totally adore actually being an artificer instead of mimicking class features)
(Just throwing it out there, and not just because I would totally adore actually being an artificer instead of mimicking class features)
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*R0ninknight
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
This is all actually quite reassuring. I was becoming disgruntled with items to be honest before reading all this. I'll be patient and see what happens. Thanks.
(P.S. I like Miraie's thought process on this)
(P.S. I like Miraie's thought process on this)
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*cryptc
- Posts: 866
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Just a note: this is intentional since we don't really want any +5 AC boots with +1 regen on it, again a balancing measure.R0ninknight,Nov 16 2015 wrote: I can't put +1 regen on boots even though I'm wearing Boots of the Stalewart Defender right now.
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*Miraie
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I think what I had in mind is a double-edged sword in this instance. It'd be a lot of work to implement (considering we just tweaked loot lists/are still in the process of doing just that). Then again, could be a lot of fun if we had the energy to change things. I think a huge overhaul like that might also call for a vault wipe, though. Legacy items might make it obsolete or hard to balance otherwise. Like said, a more comprehensive crafting system would require a lot of thought to implement successfully!
Meanwhile, it's reasonable to point at the flaws of the existing system. Maybe helmets could also be a viable slot for another attribute? Rings could use some options. Even +2 enchantable universal saves would be pretty nifty (on demand, as opposed to better effects if you gamble) - would be unique to rings too. Alternatively, rings could be enchanted to offer up to +3 will/fort/reflex. Could also offer some flavor feats or elemental resistances as competitors (those rings are common loot as well).
Meanwhile, it's reasonable to point at the flaws of the existing system. Maybe helmets could also be a viable slot for another attribute? Rings could use some options. Even +2 enchantable universal saves would be pretty nifty (on demand, as opposed to better effects if you gamble) - would be unique to rings too. Alternatively, rings could be enchanted to offer up to +3 will/fort/reflex. Could also offer some flavor feats or elemental resistances as competitors (those rings are common loot as well).
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*R0ninknight
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I was hoping much of this issue was only my personal experience so far. It seems that it is. Good. :)
What about enchantments where, once applied to an item, that item is restricted to the crafter? Like.... if Byron put +1 regen on boots, now they only fit his feet. Would that be a viable Epic feat? (Note: Epic). Epic crafting feats would be cool in general.
Look..... I'd like the ability to solo something at a respectable CR without having to give up crafting to do it. So far I've been able to help others a heck of a lot more than myself. That's great and I get lots of satisfaction out of it.... until I'm by myself. Then its hunt WAY under what other folks do at the same ECL solo from what I'm gathering.
I know from playing PnP, the single player campaign, and other worlds that spellswords are not inherently weaker than pure archetypes. Are Eldrich Knights (and similar) really so weird/rare that folks don't consider them when designing stuff? It seems there's plenty of stuff for pure warrior types and plenty of stuff for pure scholarly types but very very little meant for hybrid spellswords. The helmet options immediately come to mind but I could probably list more with greater thought investment.
I'd like to repeat my 'Mona Lisa' sentiment. This system isn't 'bad', just so close to 'awesome' that's its as much a tease as a piece of chicken 15 feet from of a caged wolf sometimes. I see something and think 'cool- lets work on that! I could get behind learning how to forge that no matter how long it takes me to learn it.' Then its.... nope, not the goods staves no matter how hard you try or how much you are willing to sacrifice for it (again, just an example). So I would consider crafting 'good' but not good enough to focus a character on yet unless you feel like waiting for a group before each excursion so you don't die alone.
To be honest, in my case I've been making up much of this problem with RP bonus experience but I don't think that should be counted on as a balancing factor, personally. Thanks for the XP, by the way. Its nice to be noticed. :D
In-Character-Wise the arguments for this situation are pretty thin (I'd never expect players to buy into any of that if I said it as a DM in a session.) The OOC reasons are pretty formidable, though. I can appreciate that.
What about enchantments where, once applied to an item, that item is restricted to the crafter? Like.... if Byron put +1 regen on boots, now they only fit his feet. Would that be a viable Epic feat? (Note: Epic). Epic crafting feats would be cool in general.
Look..... I'd like the ability to solo something at a respectable CR without having to give up crafting to do it. So far I've been able to help others a heck of a lot more than myself. That's great and I get lots of satisfaction out of it.... until I'm by myself. Then its hunt WAY under what other folks do at the same ECL solo from what I'm gathering.
I know from playing PnP, the single player campaign, and other worlds that spellswords are not inherently weaker than pure archetypes. Are Eldrich Knights (and similar) really so weird/rare that folks don't consider them when designing stuff? It seems there's plenty of stuff for pure warrior types and plenty of stuff for pure scholarly types but very very little meant for hybrid spellswords. The helmet options immediately come to mind but I could probably list more with greater thought investment.
I'd like to repeat my 'Mona Lisa' sentiment. This system isn't 'bad', just so close to 'awesome' that's its as much a tease as a piece of chicken 15 feet from of a caged wolf sometimes. I see something and think 'cool- lets work on that! I could get behind learning how to forge that no matter how long it takes me to learn it.' Then its.... nope, not the goods staves no matter how hard you try or how much you are willing to sacrifice for it (again, just an example). So I would consider crafting 'good' but not good enough to focus a character on yet unless you feel like waiting for a group before each excursion so you don't die alone.
To be honest, in my case I've been making up much of this problem with RP bonus experience but I don't think that should be counted on as a balancing factor, personally. Thanks for the XP, by the way. Its nice to be noticed. :D
In-Character-Wise the arguments for this situation are pretty thin (I'd never expect players to buy into any of that if I said it as a DM in a session.) The OOC reasons are pretty formidable, though. I can appreciate that.
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*Miraie
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I think we're definitely going OOC first here. IC can be spun whichever way we want to spin it to support the path we're taking. Maybe there are super epic crafting feats but because we do not want/can't implement them, they are not available to your character and the IC prerequisite would be meeting a Secret Master - and she doesn't ever set foot on Sigil because she's just that good. And so forth.
If you want a crafter that can solo, say, Gatecrasher Abyss for income, I recommend checking Moras' thread on builds! Maybe he'll have time for some pointers. Or you could start a new general build. I think wizards can do pretty well in the Abyss with summons, henchmen (potentially - see: Golem Master, Demonologist) and the absurdity that is Dismissal (it kills Outsiders and the DC just keeps getting better as you level - and it doesn't have a HD cap like Banishment).
The thread I was referring to - seems like Mr. Moras has built up a queue!
I can also help you with a build if you would like to discuss something conventionally effective posthaste. PMs welcome, or an open thread in the build section.
If you want a crafter that can solo, say, Gatecrasher Abyss for income, I recommend checking Moras' thread on builds! Maybe he'll have time for some pointers. Or you could start a new general build. I think wizards can do pretty well in the Abyss with summons, henchmen (potentially - see: Golem Master, Demonologist) and the absurdity that is Dismissal (it kills Outsiders and the DC just keeps getting better as you level - and it doesn't have a HD cap like Banishment).
The thread I was referring to - seems like Mr. Moras has built up a queue!
I can also help you with a build if you would like to discuss something conventionally effective posthaste. PMs welcome, or an open thread in the build section.
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*R0ninknight
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Good idea! I appreciate the advice. This is the...... 5th?, yeah 5th.... time I've restarted my main char from level 1 though so I'm not going for a round 6. Honestly.... my main's build generally fits me like a glove as a player but on this PW I've encountered the most challenge and setbacks of any medium. Fortunately, I also encountered the best RP! :D
At this point I'm going to just seek advice IC and OOC both while hoping for more blueprint releases in the future. I'm also never going to make another crafter character (lol). I'm relieved that my item troubles seem limited to just me so far and that they seem temporary by the read of this thread. I was not going to post this originally and just stew but now I'm glad I did. :)
At this point I'm going to just seek advice IC and OOC both while hoping for more blueprint releases in the future. I'm also never going to make another crafter character (lol). I'm relieved that my item troubles seem limited to just me so far and that they seem temporary by the read of this thread. I was not going to post this originally and just stew but now I'm glad I did. :)