Sigil: City of Doors

Forewarning: I'm working on partial information, so some of my thoughts and concerns may be misguided or uninformed. I don't know how the races are planned to be balanced once all of them are +3 LA or less. If you believe I am wrong about something, please be polite about pointing it out. I don't wish for this to be a vitriolic discussion as some balance related threads tend to become. If anything, I really want to be proven wrong. I want to be convinced that everything's okay and it'll all work out.

I believe strongly that the way racial PrCs are currently done is not being balanced correctly. All of them have +3 ECL, and yet they seem very unbalanced. In theory, the levels of racial PrC are supposed to be a balancing act. You miss a few levels of your desired class (and lose a class slot), but you gain the benefits of your race without having to have an excessively high LA. Unfortunately, the way the PrCs are currently built, you can build an excessively strong character with a much lower LA.

The new succubus racial PrC is currently the biggest offender. Classically, succubi have been a caster class. Their excessive CHA was balanced out by the high LA. Let's check now. Succubi are not required to be Favored Soul, Sorcerer, or Warlock, but they have a heavy incentive. Favored Soul in particular leads to one of the most powerful melee builds in the game, and succubi get 9/10 spell progression for it. They also get a whopping +9 CHA, 9 natural armor, and a bunch of other goodies. If they get cleric, EDM and DS, they become real powerhouses from all the extra CHA. For +3 LA. In trade-off, they sacrifice some HP and some class features. Instead of being a pure caster race, they can be an extremely powerful melee race. They also have access to Divine Power with only a 1 level FS investment, negating any AB problems. I suppose in the end, I really object to FS being a preferred class for succubi. If it's to be kept, FS succubi should only get 1/2 spell progression, so they at least have to put some work in to get divine power. Sorcerer and warlock are fine for the most part. They don't benefit quite as much from the succubi bonuses, and they really need the higher spell progression.

Let's compare to some other racial PrCs. Aasimon are fairly well balanced with respect to succubi. Less CHA and natural armor, but they get STR too. They only get 1/2 spell progression, but at least they get d8 HD and high fortitude/will saves. Marquis Cambion is also fairly balanced. They are forced into a stealth class, but some races are just meant to be certain classes. Although, no penalty sneaking with full-plate? How? Looking at the new giants, they seem to be the new go-to race for fighters. They lose some bonus feats, but that's about it. Again, unless they go for something strange for that race, they sacrifice very little and gain a ton by taking the full 7 levels of the PrC. I suppose the lack of customization is still a big downside for many players.

Now here's my concern. I worry that the racial PrCs give too much of an advantage for their intended classes at only +3 LA, particularly the previously high LA races. Sure, other races have a bit more freedom in their class choices, but that's not much consolation. Before, "powerful" races were balanced out by their LA, but now it seems that's just not the case. The powerful races are just more powerful and that's it. I really want to be proven wrong on this, but that's how it seems to me.

So my summary questions: Unless you pick a non-preferred class, is there any real trade-off for taking the maximum racial PrC levels? Are we fixing the problems with high LAs, or are we just giving those races excessive buffs and advantages? Are succubi and aasimon just always going to be superior to other races in their preferred classes?

Some good points.

What I would have to say about this is that to get the most out of the races, you're not only taking the +3 LA hit, but you're also losing one of your four class choices, making it much harder to do some of the "class dipping" which could be done with a standard build, particularly considering that in the case of casters, you're unable to count your racial PRC levels towards qualifying for other prestige classes. This makes taking one-level dips into cleric, shadowdancer, monk, and so on a much more challenging prospect.

Allowing caster progression is one of the big issues here, and a primary reason behind the genesis of this project. You chose a high-LA race, and you were crazy powerful right off the bat ("here's an epic power at level one, have fun!") but could never become undispellable as a caster. So dropping caster levels is probably not an option, although I could see where more tweaking could be done to enforce a "no-dipping" policy. Is it caster level 24 you need to be undispellable? If so, converting Succubus and Brachina to 7/10 would prevent the taking of cleric dips for EDM, although I'd rather not do this (I can hear the wailing already) unless it's something that's truly game-breaking, as it also prevents the taking of other non-cheese prestige classes (Eldritch knight, pale master, warpriest) that do not give full 10/10 progression.

Oh, and the Marquis Cambion's "Silent Metal" feat? That's actually lifted straight from the monster description in PnP (3.5 Expedition to the Demonweb Pits module).

And yes, the giants get a bit of love specifically because of the non-customization issue. Something has to be fun to play to make up for giving up one of NWN2 and specifically SCoD's most appealing features.

And finally, Elusa, do you have any concrete suggestions for changes to be made?

1) Please do not simply compare PrC descriptions to ECL 0 races. There are mechanical things that are easy overseen when doing so.

During testing I made a mathematical comparisson of giants and humans at level 21, heres the result:

wrote:Race/PRC Combo: Human Fighter 9/WM 7/FB 5
Stat Boni: +5 Str
AB (PA): 26 (23)
Attacks: 5
2h Dmg (PA): +7 (+21)
AC: 10
HP: 220
Spellcasting: 0
Bonus Feats: 5
Additional: Cleaves twice, WM included

Race/PRC Combo: Human Bard 1/Fighter 5/RDD10/FB 5
Stat Boni: +13 Str +2 Con +2 Cha +4 AC
AB (PA): 25 (22)
Attacks: 4
2h Dmg (PA): +12 (+22)
AC: 14
HP: 247
Spellcasting: 1
Bonus Feats: 4
Additional: Cleaves twice, Fire Immunity, Immune to Paralysis

Race/PRC Combo: Fire Giant Fighter 6/Fire Giant 7/FB 5
Stat Boni: +18 Str +7 Con +2 AC
AB: 27 (24)
Attacks: 4,7
2h Dmg (PA): +19 (+29)
AC: 12
HP: 253
Spellcasting: 0
Bonus Feats: 4
Additional: Cleaves twice, Fire Immunity, 30% runspeed, Giant weapon difference included, cant get Strength in epic levels

You have to consider that giants cant take "epic strength feats" and thus human will catch up during epic levels.

2) Comments on the new PrCs are always welcomed!

Alersia,Jan 25 2016 wrote: 1) Please do not simply compare PrC descriptions to ECL 0 races. There are mechanical things that are easy overseen when doing so.

I'm not trying to, I'm just not that great at the math behind character builds, nor am I particularly good at comparing builds. And no, I don't, at the moment, have any concrete suggestions. I'm merely expressing my concerns.

I did do a bit more number juggling and realized how much a succubus would have to sacrifice to get FS with a cleric dip for EDM. When I compared a hypothetical succubus build to the half-celestial one I've been working on, I realized that I was getting a huge help from the +4 racial STR and +4 from RDD levels to get the 21 STR and 21 CHA for EDM. It looks like they're fairly even, maybe even with the half-celestial on top due to higher HD. The succubus ends up with a higher CL and more spells, but since clerics/FS are buffing classes, it doesn't matter so much.

One thing: Whether or not you can be dispelled is dependent on your character level, not caster level. So at max level a succubus will always be safe from dispels, even if they took the minimum number of caster levels. My cleric is only caster level 17 and never gets dispelled. So you could knock succubi down to 1/2 spell progression and the only thing that would change is they would have less spell slots at the end. But after consideration, 9/10 is probably fine.

Most of my concerns have pretty much been swept away now that I've put them into words, gotten some feedback, and thought on it some more. Not that I won't be keeping my eye on the races. I think that's the healthy thing to do regardless. I'm just better convinced that this will work.

I always get the whole caster level/character level thing confused. LOL.

Also to point out, Half-Celestial (and Half-Fiend) will eventually be reworked into a Template Class (like Lich or the forthcoming Death Knight and Vampire). Both for balancing, and so people can have half-celestial goblins (although they're gonna be screwed on the wings) or half-fiend elves.

Im not sure where to start with this, but sounds you just have issue with divine power , over all, as that argument could be used with any race, favored or not. I would suggest trying to build some of these combinations and test how they work out in comparason to any other pc that has divine levels.

The problem I have with the new racial PRC is a different one: They force the creature into a certain role.

A succubus sneak? You get effectively a +10 LA to that. A Cambion Caster? +7 LA. Erynies Cleric? Heh- won't work out well.

Taking only a few levels of the racial PRC leaves the toon is an odd RP-limbo for me: You are not an Erinyes, not an Incubus, not a Fire Giant nor.. whatever. You just look like one :D .

Accepting the LA and build what you want results in grinding through several levels where your toon cannot act in its role well. Lets stay with the Erinyes cleric: I take Cleric at 1
, take Martial proficiency as feat. Then I either grind through 6 levels of 'gaining nothing' cleric wise or I postpone getting the race I want for getting the character class I want to play.

TBH I had preferred to be slapped with a higher LA and for this being able to start the character I want right away.

I enter Sigil as a fully fledged Baatezu and Erynies and can start to focus on my RP as a Cleric of Glasya without having to find awkward RP explanations why my toon just sprouted wings, got immune to fire ect.

Power wise the result is the same for me anyway- RP wise the high LA assigned helps me a lot.

Just to speak to that one instance in particular... the role of Cleric is not really one the Erinyes is suited to lore-wise. Any more than, say, a halfling is suited to frenzied barbarian, or an ogre is suited to bard. or a dwarf to assassin.

With that said, it does come back to being "fully vested" in the racial PRC. If you only take limited levels in it, you ARE an erinyes... but consider it giving up some of the innate power of your form in order to become something you're really not. And this is why the +3 LA maximum was chosen: not only does it equal the maximum in the base game so isn't onerous, but it also allows most build concepts to be created. You can still get 20 levels of a casting class with the 6-level PRCs like Erinyes, or to 21 with classes like monk and ranger that give something special at that point, plus you get to choose at what point you progress the racial PRC. If divine casting is the most important part of your character, you can start off with Cleric, get to L2 in about five minutes of running about Sigil, get the wings and initial bonuses taken care of, and then progress straight cleric until you hit your epics; on the other hand if it's more important to you to toss around Unholy Blights and summon other devils, you can sprint through the racial class levels and focus on the casting later.

Either way, you can still RP as what you are straight away, as you don't exactly need to be an epic-level character for the sake of role-playing.

. . Just feel the races are more pigeon holed then ever. Trading in one of your class slots in order to have the appearance of the race your emulating. Something I was looking at was the devils and the favored warlock class.

At this point, as a devil, should they not be the ones /offering/ packs? And since they are alignment locked, theres only one alignment they can even be.

Course nothing stops you from pretending to be a different alignment.

If you have +3 ECL, you lose:
3 caster levels and the associated 1 DC for all your spells
3 HD worth of saves
3 HD worth of health
3 HD worth of BAB
1 base epic feat and usually 1 or more bonus feats
3 HD worth of skill points and 3 from your maximum (Can still get Tumble 30 though)


Sometimes the benefits of the race are overwhelmingly better than that, sometimes not so much, largely depending on what build you're going for. A rogue suffers a lot from missing three epic levels, since that's usually going to be 4d6 (14 average) damage per attack. On the other hand, some builds get a bunch of damage with Epic Divine Might at 21 and require very little else from their epics.

I think it's a tricky one to balance, because there will always be niche builds that slip through the net.



edited for clarification ^^;