Howdy! I'm playing on my little kobold wizard, and I already know what I plan on doing with her.
10 levels wizard, 10 levels cleric, and 10 levels of Mystic Theurge...
However, I have a question!
If I were to substitute one of those levels along the lines, and instead got a SINGLE level of a different class (i.e. Soul Knife), how much of a disadvantage would I be at?
I mean like, instead of
10 Cleric
10 Wizard
10 M. Theurge
Any disadvantage if I went:
10 Cleric
10 Wizard
9 M. Theurge
1 Soulknife?
How Gimped Would I Be If....?
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*Dredi
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
You're better going Cleric 9 than M.theurge as Cleric 9 alone provids +1 cleric caster level where M.Theurge provides +1 cleric and +1 wizard caster level.
Also, you might be better going say, palemaster as this gives +1 caster level for wizard and gives +2 stacking ac
Also, you might be better going say, palemaster as this gives +1 caster level for wizard and gives +2 stacking ac
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*Gazoo
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
If Divine Power is a deciding factor for cleric, note that it has been changed to:
-BAB up to current cleric CL (including Practiced caster)
So with the changes:
-both wizard and MT are low BAB, cleric is med, which means your 10/10/10 BAB will be ~17
your cleric CL with PC will be 24...and so DP will give 24 BAB.
-but you've got Tenser's Transformation (CL24 with pc), as well...for another boost.
If you take only 9 cleric, then CL (with pc) is 13...which means that you don't see any improvement with DP.
Ofc, you may only be interested in the other parts of cleric. Just FYI.
-BAB up to current cleric CL (including Practiced caster)
So with the changes:
-both wizard and MT are low BAB, cleric is med, which means your 10/10/10 BAB will be ~17
your cleric CL with PC will be 24...and so DP will give 24 BAB.
-but you've got Tenser's Transformation (CL24 with pc), as well...for another boost.
If you take only 9 cleric, then CL (with pc) is 13...which means that you don't see any improvement with DP.
Ofc, you may only be interested in the other parts of cleric. Just FYI.
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*Pellease
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Not sure why you would want to go SK though regardless of how you do the MT. Soul knives are all about CL levels. You would just be walking around with a couple blade possibilities that can't be enchanted and aren't really being put to any of their potential. . .
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*LamiaCritter
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
I had grabbed that level of Soulknife as something to make my character at least a little less squishy, but uh.. I'm finding out that such hasn't helped much XDDredi,Oct 9 2016 wrote: I guess the major question is, what are you trying to do?
If i know a little bit more, I can probably make you a nicer build :3
Though to answer the question
I'm looking for pretty much... Well, I know it sounds probably far-fetched... but I'm looking for a class or build that would let me cast up to 9th level in both arcane and divine spells at the same time.. Which inevitably would mean I need to go with dualclassing..
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*Dredi
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
to get level 9 in both spells you need your 10 MT levels and 7 caster levels for the other two from other sources.
A total of 20 caster levels gets the maximum available spellslots.
Since you can have Cleric and wizard and MT thats 3 of your max 4 - which means you can go for one other potential class.
You need i believe 3 levels of each cleric and wizard to get MT so that means you can have a potential 7 levels in another PRC or base class, I'd personally reccomend going Arcane Scholar with this in order to get improved Maximise, Improved Empower and Quicken - which you can then use for both classes.
I'm also fairly sure skill focus spellcraft is required for both MT and arcane scholar - but doing this reduces your extra wizard feats from 2 to 0 (level 5 wizard and level 10 wizard) unless you also reduce your cleric levels and take your wizard caster level over 20.
If you're just looking for bulkiness thats a hard one to really say and basically impossible with a build like this since most of the levels are d4 HP
Outside of going for an ECL class or taking like, Lich or vampire its probably not going to happen very easily.
A total of 20 caster levels gets the maximum available spellslots.
Since you can have Cleric and wizard and MT thats 3 of your max 4 - which means you can go for one other potential class.
You need i believe 3 levels of each cleric and wizard to get MT so that means you can have a potential 7 levels in another PRC or base class, I'd personally reccomend going Arcane Scholar with this in order to get improved Maximise, Improved Empower and Quicken - which you can then use for both classes.
I'm also fairly sure skill focus spellcraft is required for both MT and arcane scholar - but doing this reduces your extra wizard feats from 2 to 0 (level 5 wizard and level 10 wizard) unless you also reduce your cleric levels and take your wizard caster level over 20.
If you're just looking for bulkiness thats a hard one to really say and basically impossible with a build like this since most of the levels are d4 HP
Outside of going for an ECL class or taking like, Lich or vampire its probably not going to happen very easily.
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*LamiaCritter
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
No, no. I'm actually not going for bulkiness. That single SK level wa- well that's all it was going to be. A single level to just SLIGHTLY bypass some of the squishiness and give me some low level options for being upclose in melee combat.Dredi,Oct 9 2016 wrote: to get level 9 in both spells you need your 10 MT levels and 7 caster levels for the other two from other sources.
A total of 20 caster levels gets the maximum available spellslots.
Since you can have Cleric and wizard and MT thats 3 of your max 4 - which means you can go for one other potential class.
You need i believe 3 levels of each cleric and wizard to get MT so that means you can have a potential 7 levels in another PRC or base class, I'd personally reccomend going Arcane Scholar with this in order to get improved Maximise, Improved Empower and Quicken - which you can then use for both classes.
I'm also fairly sure skill focus spellcraft is required for both MT and arcane scholar - but doing this reduces your extra wizard feats from 2 to 0 (level 5 wizard and level 10 wizard) unless you also reduce your cleric levels and take your wizard caster level over 20.
If you're just looking for bulkiness thats a hard one to really say and basically impossible with a build like this since most of the levels are d4 HP
Outside of going for an ECL class or taking like, Lich or vampire its probably not going to happen very easily.
Buuuuut... that didn't help much xD
I'm not looking for melee classes honestly. I just want to be able to cast both divine and arcane at the highest i can :P
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*Ceremorph
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
One thing to realize is that you're not going to get the same bang for your buck with cleric as you will with wizard. I'd make sure your wizard casting hits 20, but with cleric 17 or 18 should be enough, particularly as you get one bonus spell of each level due to your domain, and really the only "must persistent" cleric spell to use a L9 slot is Prayer (for a pure cleric you might have time domain and haste to cast, but you'll cast those as a wizard anyways.
So what I'd look for is either the ASOC route above, which if your primary purpose is blaster caster you'll absolutely want. On the other hand, if you plan on going the gish route with lots of castings of Divine Power for high BAB (and probably auto-still feats in the epics), you'd be better served either with Pale Master for the aforementioned AC boost, or with some other class where a 1-, 2-, or 3-level dip would give you something. For example, Fighter 2 would give you a pair of bonus feats, Shadowdancer 2 would give you HiPS and Evasion, a single level of rogue would open up some skills such as UMD to be taken to higher ranks, and a level of bard would give you an attack bonus inspiration.
I think the hardest part of this build, however, is its lack of synergy. Is there any reason you're going wizard/cleric where you'd need to pump both Int and Wis, rather than Sorcerer/Favored Soul where both would benefit from high Charisma? You could still Theurge these, and although you'd lose out on two free domain feats and two wizard bonus feats, I think the higher DCs on your sorcerer attack spells and the bonus spells gained by a high attribute, as well as a better overall stat spread, would be worth it.
So what I'd look for is either the ASOC route above, which if your primary purpose is blaster caster you'll absolutely want. On the other hand, if you plan on going the gish route with lots of castings of Divine Power for high BAB (and probably auto-still feats in the epics), you'd be better served either with Pale Master for the aforementioned AC boost, or with some other class where a 1-, 2-, or 3-level dip would give you something. For example, Fighter 2 would give you a pair of bonus feats, Shadowdancer 2 would give you HiPS and Evasion, a single level of rogue would open up some skills such as UMD to be taken to higher ranks, and a level of bard would give you an attack bonus inspiration.
I think the hardest part of this build, however, is its lack of synergy. Is there any reason you're going wizard/cleric where you'd need to pump both Int and Wis, rather than Sorcerer/Favored Soul where both would benefit from high Charisma? You could still Theurge these, and although you'd lose out on two free domain feats and two wizard bonus feats, I think the higher DCs on your sorcerer attack spells and the bonus spells gained by a high attribute, as well as a better overall stat spread, would be worth it.
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*The_Tarot
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
There is a lot of lack if synergy with the Mystic Theurge, which is why it has such a poor reputation, even in PnP , and it's even less powerful in NWN2 which favors the whole buff buff buff, auto attack route of things over actually casting a spell to solve a problem. As DCs are too low, saves are too high, and immunities are everywhere, with incorrect effects, etc.
It's honestly a matter of style, what is it you are trying to accomplish?
The Auto Still line of Epic Feats solves a lot of problems defensively, by allowing an arcane caster to use iron body, crit immunity, +6 str, some slowdown, but.. you have haste and exp retreat, and no limit on damage taken, and unlike the rest of the damage absorbers, cannot be simply breached off by anything. Also lets you use Full Plate and Shield without worry too.
With such a low Caster Level , and reliant on buffs to survive, dispelling would be a serious issue, and out of all the classes, Shadow Dancer, as 'lame' as it is, would provide the most protection by breaking spell locks, and detargeting, even with minimum ranks in it.
Assuming the best armor available, +5 natural, +5 dodge, +5 Deflection, +8 (Full Plate) +1 Dex (+6) Improved Mage Armor, Luck of Heroes. You'd be sitting at 41 (or 46 with the boots bugging out daily.) +4 with the shield spell, or +7 more with an actual heavy shield.
That's 53 AC, +7 with Mirror Image. (It works BEST with high AC, also stops 20s from auto hitting and knockdowns) Displacement. - and there is room for Improved Combat Expertise if you 'really' wanted.
It's honestly a matter of style, what is it you are trying to accomplish?
The Auto Still line of Epic Feats solves a lot of problems defensively, by allowing an arcane caster to use iron body, crit immunity, +6 str, some slowdown, but.. you have haste and exp retreat, and no limit on damage taken, and unlike the rest of the damage absorbers, cannot be simply breached off by anything. Also lets you use Full Plate and Shield without worry too.
With such a low Caster Level , and reliant on buffs to survive, dispelling would be a serious issue, and out of all the classes, Shadow Dancer, as 'lame' as it is, would provide the most protection by breaking spell locks, and detargeting, even with minimum ranks in it.
Assuming the best armor available, +5 natural, +5 dodge, +5 Deflection, +8 (Full Plate) +1 Dex (+6) Improved Mage Armor, Luck of Heroes. You'd be sitting at 41 (or 46 with the boots bugging out daily.) +4 with the shield spell, or +7 more with an actual heavy shield.
That's 53 AC, +7 with Mirror Image. (It works BEST with high AC, also stops 20s from auto hitting and knockdowns) Displacement. - and there is room for Improved Combat Expertise if you 'really' wanted.