Metagaming

[*Sinlinara]

To be fair, usually you can spot a vampire a mile away either because most of them play the stereotypical dresses in black or because they're usually the ones openly RPing wanting to drink blood. The complete lack of skin-tone options doesn't help either; a black person's skin doesn't suddenly turn white when they die. And supposing they manage to go under the radar despite all of that, it becomes pretty clear what they are when I accidentally kill them because I regularly use Mass Heal in groups.

I understand the point you're trying to make: If I'm actually attempting to hide what my character is from other people then having Detect Undead totally sucks. And sure, it's probably way more interesting to have other people find out that you're a vampire because they cast a Heal spell on you without realizing what you were. But Detect Undead is only one of a number of things that make it very easy to tell who's who.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

To be fair, usually you can spot a vampire a mile away either because most of them play the stereotypical dresses in black or because they're usually the ones openly RPing wanting to drink blood.  The complete lack of skin-tone options doesn't help either; a black person's skin doesn't suddenly turn white when they die.  And supposing they manage to go under the radar despite all of that, it becomes pretty clear what they are when I accidentally kill them because I regularly use Mass Heal in groups.

I understand the point you're trying to make: If I'm actually attempting to hide what my character is from other people then having Detect Undead totally sucks.  And sure, it's probably way more interesting to have other people find out that you're a vampire because they cast a Heal spell on you without realizing what you were.  But Detect Undead is only one of a number of things that make it very easy to tell who's who.

Yep, yes. I absolutely agree, actually. The bulk of vampires don't bother concealing themselves, so that's a contributing factor.

But I still hold that Detect Undead has no place on a server that doesn't hold you to roleplay your character sheet. It's in NWN2 because the main campaign was so undead focused, and the literal incarnation of the spell would be useless in an action game environment.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I'm just generally in favor of the possibility of shocking developments and investigation without lazy shortcuts. As a player I want my character to be betrayed or cheated, that's a much better story than realising from the get go that someone is undead from afar. That's kind of one of the few things vampires actually have going for them, infiltrating among the food. The other side of it is that I feel always a little cheated when my character comes up with a clever way to outsmart puzzles or people, only to figure out that next to me is some guy casting a spell and spending 4-5 words to do something I created a whole system for.

Mysteries and investigation are some of the best aspects in roleplaying, I'm not sure why'd anyone want to get methods to deny either honestly. Ah, but now I'm hearing "you can design methods around these spells" yes, I know... but if you design methods around those spells all the time, then what's the point of having the spells at all?

I'd rather people summoned fiends or genies and tried to make them pry for information for a cost while they understand little of mortal society and can't/doesn't want to necessarily give all relevant information. Such convolution gives you a push toward right direction, but removes neither investigation nor the mystery usually.

[*Miraie]

To clarify, Ms Abigail fell into the bulk of vampires who do not even try because I thought it would not be possible to make concealed identity a plot point. It would only lead to tedium. If one really wanted to try, I suppose one could make a living character and play them as a vampire to throw off some people.. though since Detect Undead is a mechanical ability.. suffice to say, there would be grounds for rules disputes.

[*rapsam2003]

Fer example.. my character keeps Truesight goin on herself almost all tha time fer RP reasons. Ah reckon other folks might too. Don jus assume someones metagamin if they see ya with invis er etheral up.  :)

I think this kind of thing needs to be stated IC. For example:

PC1 goes invisible.
PC2 says, "I can still see you. I have natural truesight. Is there a reason you attempted to go invisible?"
PC1 reacts.

If you don't state, I'm using truesight, then 1) missed RP opportunity ("oh, you have truesight? interesting...") AND 2) how would other players know? Similar IC RP would need to be done with other spells that detect things.

[*Strawberry Jam]

Actually table top has spells and powers to fake detect results or negate them. Mind blank also foils divination.

Also on the topic of concealed identity you can't even conceal psionic powers despite no verbal, material, or somatic components. And everyone that checks the wiki will know everything about psions. It is tedium to try and correct people, even if you roleplay with descriptions or personalized explanations most people default to using game words, game names, and repeating game descriptions as in character.

Can't really fight it lol

[*Miraie]

The rules dispute might come from the fact that one of our oft-stated practices is: if it can be represented in the game engine, no consent is required. Nondetection is not a spell we have, for example. Detect Undead is, thanks to Obsidian. Now, technically, playing as a living human could work as a way to represent Nondetection mechanically.. Ah. It'd get quirky.

[*Love_on_a_Wire]

Actually table top has spells and powers to fake detect results or negate them. Mind blank also foils divination.

Yup, yes. This was mentioned and I think implementing them would be one cool possibility. The issue is that that doesn't address the no obligation to roleplay your character sheet issue. A sorcerer who is a vampire could protect his identity with Nondetection or Misdirection or the like, but a character that is not a vampire IC, and has only taken the PRC as part of a build or alternate character concept such as a lifelike construct, and is only an undead OOC has to put up with spells that say they're undead when they are not.

[*Link6746]

We need nondetection spells/powers/enchantments.

But we also need detect alignment in feat/spell/power form (Reacting only to undead, alignment descriptor outsiders, and divine/profane casters, with static results for undead and outsiders with an alignment descriptor). We also need to use IC desciptions of detected alignments/conditions/races if that gets implimented.

Honestly, both are important for accuracy to character concepts.

[*rapsam2003]

You're assuming that the only way to grapple someone is to grab them and crush them under your weight. It's not. The rules allow it, so if you can beat that large penalty (-8 for the hin)... you can grapple a large creature.

Well, that's the thing, it's a -8 penalty. So, basically you have to beat the giant's like 20 strength (actual value depends, of course) and overcome the penalty. Good luck.

As for the "boneshattering" thing, I wasn't there, so hard to say, but it -sounds- like the person might just have been using flowery words to describe how strong the punch is, not describing the results of the punch. Like when a bard sings a "Haunting" melody, or a thief moves "like a shadow".

Maybe, even so, it was an escalation, which I didn't agree to and they didn't propose.