Faction War Discussion

[*Mr_Otyugh]

That's the gist in planescape, while it challenges the idea of deities being a dominant force, it doesn't say that they're wrong. Religion is a very powerful force still. Instead planescape gives it competition. While it may introduce factions like Athar that "abhors" deities, it also admits that the said faction mostly exists in places where deities can't touch them, Sigil and at the base of the Spire. And it makes a suggestion that there might actually be true god above it all as well, an unknowable force, or as they call it "The Great Unknown". Similarly not all factions even agree with Athar, Harmonium actually has got into a conflict with Athar because of their beliefs ^{("Enraged by the philosophy of the Athar, a factor of the Harmonium redirects patrols to assault the Shattered Temple. The factor is mazed, but the faction still institutes discrete guerrilla strikes against the faction for some time.")}, around the same time they had a fit with the Doomguard.

It's true that ICwise the planars think less of primers, but in many ways... don't the primers do the same to planars? It's a curious mix which tries to avoid allowing enlightenment and instead breed conflict.

[*Ceremorph]

The primary difference is going to be that knowledge is more readily available in Sigil. On a Prime, the average person might believe all the gods live on a mountain and when you die you live in caverns beneath the earth. The king of your country is the most powerful man in existence, and the sage two towns over is the smartest being you've ever met, and you better not go into the forest because the inscrutable and dangerous elven folk live there.

Meanwhile, even the most common Sigilite beggar understands concepts about the workings of the multiverse that would seem like a daft story to that prime, has likely interacted with beings from a hundred different worlds, and has probably ducked into an alley as a spiky-headed god-level Power floated down the street. And of course planewalkers take that even one step further, and the truly "learned" in the setting have knowledge that Prime archmages wish they had. I've played a Sigilian native on another server, and she is constantly amazed at how "un-worldly" most of these prime folk are.

Now backtracking to the mention of Sects... there's nothing saying you can't play as a member of one; the only rule is that they can't call themselves a Faction, and we're probably not going to create any mechanical features tied to them. After all, there's already a presence from the Merkhants in the warehouse... but it's only one modron and a couple of guys to carry boxes around for him.

[*Taihou]

The primary difference is going to be that knowledge is more readily available in Sigil. On a Prime, the average person might believe all the gods live on a mountain and when you die you live in caverns beneath the earth. The king of your country is the most powerful man in existence, and the sage two towns over is the smartest being you've ever met, and you better not go into the forest because the inscrutable and dangerous elven folk live there.

Meanwhile, even the most common Sigilite beggar understands concepts about the workings of the multiverse that would seem like a daft story to that prime, has likely interacted with beings from a hundred different worlds, and has probably ducked into an alley as a spiky-headed god-level Power floated down the street. And of course planewalkers take that even one step further, and the truly "learned" in the setting have knowledge that Prime archmages wish they had. I've played a Sigilian native on another server, and she is constantly amazed at how "un-worldly" most of these prime folk are.

Now backtracking to the mention of Sects... there's nothing saying you can't play as a member of one; the only rule is that they can't call themselves a Faction, and we're probably not going to create any mechanical features tied to them. After all, there's already a presence from the Merkhants in the warehouse... but it's only one modron and a couple of guys to carry boxes around for him.

It is all very relative: For low-born lout from low-to-no magic bronze/iron age-like or medieval setting it may be relevant, but Yasuyo for example is from dieselpunk (but nontheless medium-magic) world, stuck for centuries in WW1-WW2 era, thus most of what those "antique/medieval" primers would consider perhaps knowledge worth professor in medieval-style university (or academy of magic) there would be a knowledge of no more, than nine classes of school education, available for even not smartest student.

Religion there is nontheless relevant, but concept-wise much more sophisticated, than simple belief of divines dwelling somewhere in "earthly" places, like mountains, trees or palace in the clouds (in this case, rather earthly sacred sites being places of conjunction of dimensions and planes, enabling access to divine realms of divinities, associated with named sacred sites).

[*Strawberry Jam]

Hmm I think there are lots of differences between Sigil and primes that it doesn't work the same. A prime material plane is centered on the material side, enveloped in the ethereal plane, with the inner planes supplying the matter to the material plane. The astral plane is the transit plane to the outer planes, with the outlands in the "center" connecting to all planes, and Sigil in the "center" of the outlands so it's the center of the outer planes. But wait a moment, where does the material come from?!
That's one of the mysterious things because these are also sometimes called the planes of belief. When you travel to these planes you could say you have ceased to exist materially, an incorporeal creature from the astral plane is corporeal on the astral plane. Belief and ideologies can become real here. The factions embody a broad range of beliefs at the center of it all in Sigil.

I think yo can say that sects and the older factions still exist as groups in the 15 factions today. =)

[*Hydra]

@Taihou

Sigil is a... I'll use that world as carefully as a can, a post-modern setting, everything is based on philosophy rather than on religion, why ? Because people can visit the play they'll go where they die, that's usually quite mind shattering because some certitudes are confirmed and the whole way prime world works become this "mechanic" thing stuck in the great wheel. Its fantasy without the mystery and the "magic", everything can be explained and there are no more reasons to abide to certain authorities claiming their right from the divine, because someone might just say "oh they're probably descended from celestials cutter, its pretty common here", and all the sudden they just look like petty local warlords. Also its a setting where no one seems to be completely and objectively right, especially when talking about the meaning of life and metaphysics and that's where the factions/sects comes in.

[*Taihou]

To be honest, I do not consider "factions" that important for setting. I would even say, that they are the only thing about planescape setting, which I do not like.

[*Whitefly]

I like the idea of having more freedom than the factions, like the sects and stuff. Mathematicians are much more interesting than Guvners because unravelling the secrets of the multiverse is invariably going to take you on more adventures than paper shuffling, for instance.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

That's actually perfectly Guvner thing to do also, Whitefly. Just because they have an official role in the city, doesn't mean that they're forgetting to apply the same principles toward the multiverse as a whole. The paper turning guvner is practically the same kind of cliche as you can apply to any country; funny and definitely happening in some parts, but only barely reflects the entire reality.

Factions (and sects) are actually an integral part of the planescape, they are the closest resemblance of "thoughtscape" you can get, and away from "faith". Where primes are run by faith to deities, the outerplanes are mostly tied to the concept of "thoughtscape" which is that strong belief, even on abstract concepts rather than just some posh individual, can make tangible changes to the reality. That is planar layers changes to another plane due to alignment shifts and the likes. Those are very planescape-ish things, and factions tend to be in the core for those with history and everything. Factions also carry with them majority of planar history and really introduces you to the setting. It also smoothly ties together so many different settings without just having the lazy "gods did it" as a reason. It makes a proof of concept that you can become powerful planar force without the need for gods or ancient outsider backing.

Just walking from one plane to another, or going to some city at the "center of the multiverse" keeps people entertained a while, but honestly that's just an expansion to Prime worlds, it doesn't have any fundamental differences except different background and people. I mean, planar traveling is possible in almost every setting... but if you want a deeper attachment than just migration from plane to another, Factions make a good foundation, they give you a wide array of philosophies to approach matters, or if you want avoid the said factions, that's fine too. But at least you know the philosophies and forces attached to them are a thing rather than needing to make up that "everything in Sigil is kind of bland mesh of everything with no-personality guards, to just random bunch of merchants", it gives basic services a personality, and also reflects their agendas beyond just being there to provide you services. And you can add any number of individuals on top of that which don't condone the faction practices.

[*Mander]

Philosophy is definitely an integral part of the setting, it's refreshing. I love the factions for the depth they add to interactions in sigil.

That said, some big conflict or change would be welcome. Our version of sigil has already split from the mainstream with the mercykillers and fated factols canceling their marriage plans. The story can go wherever the staff would like.

[*Taihou]

Mr Outyugh, concept is understandable, however has one large flaw, which is basically: "From objective point of view, who says, that primers are wrong in their views and 'sigilians' right?"

Maybe this thoughtscape concept can exist as a theory to some point, but it finally at some point may prove inferior to faith concept.

Maybe I am just stubborn and unchangable primer, but to me the faction war and actual degradation of faction system seems to be a natural and inevitable process of downfall of "interesting", but weak ideology in front of much more objective, universal and overall effective and strong one. Because if Sigil lived by "objectively best concept", it would been long since it had turned to a kind of utopia, instead of being criminal amoral gangs-run city, where strength, fear and violence are only way of control.

I of course accept Sigil as it is now, but would tend to RP most of my characters to have strong faith and confidence, that Prime way is the best way, sitting on cross-roads of planes on the other hand simply had driven folks living there barmy and in need of mental, ideological and philosophical re-education.

Would of course be happy if some people at least would RP along as ones, who would go for this re-education.