Dialog Skills

[*StealthedAssailant]

Just use commonsense, if a dice roll is requested you can decline it like you can PVP no one can force you to do something that your character would not do or believe in with a dice roll......

It's fun when people oblige but it's harassment if the initiator insists, which is what needs to be remembered here. 

Also dice rolls are not meant to be player to player is supposed to be a PNP mechanic that is monitored by a DM to arbitrate.

bluff - why lie truth is more disturbing, why lie its work, truth is only thing meaningful lies just mean people are unable to embrace truth or just stupid.

Tell that to a character who wants to get you into a harmonium hq for questioning and can see your name above your char's head.

Thing is-sometimes it's just impossible to wiessel out of a situation without of a roll and since sometimes you're being given a choice "roll, or I'm not buying it" it's not always possible to decline a roll request.

Harassment or not-players are using it quite often for exact same reason mentioned by DarkLeaf.

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On a side note-bonus saves from a spellcraft skill are vs spells only ;) So it helfs wizard to calculate a blast radius of a fireball flying towards him, so that he can move to safety, but it isn't going to help him to avoid a spiked trap or a bard's song(unless it's a spell-like ability).

You can always deny a roll request. Do not presume to think you have the authority to demand it from people.

You're missing the point-sometimes people are behaving like "roll or else..." And in cases like that there is little to no way out of it, since it's either a roll or an unwanted, by your char, course of action.

If anyone does a "roll or else" demand besides a DM they are crossing the line. If either of you or parties involved are metagaming/godmoding something that would require a roll then it should be discussed via //tell or arbitrated by a staff member whether IG, forum, pm, email, etc....

You have the ability to take screens of the dialogue to record and present your complaint to any available member of staff. If you don't support your arguements then it is only you who are at fault if something gets out of hand.

Like the previous poster added, the outcomes of not rolling on command by another player can only lead to really two outcomes:

1. They ask for PvP consent, which you can completely decline and "move-on" such as the rules state.

2. They will think you're an ass for not complying, ignore you for the rest of day to cool-off, possibly write a complaint to a staff member (which you can obviously do as well).

Either way, your character didn't make the roll that was unlawfully demanded. Now, this is all under the context that good form and commonsense is not being used. If it makes sense that a roll is being requested, especially by a DM supervising the interactions between PC to PC or PC to NPC then it should be obliged, but even then you can still challenge a DM's reasoning if again, it defies commonsense or conflicts directly with your character's objectives (you'll probably get smoted, but at least you said something :lol: )

Point is, no PC can make you do what you don't want to do. No PC can prevent you from just walking away or logging off. The rules of this PW are in favor of the DECLINER of any hostilities until the issue is raised to the attention of the staff. This doesn't mean that you can ignore or are elligible to be immune to the requests that are WITHIN REASON. To do so is godmoding and is also a violation of the IG rules of the PW.

What I meant by commonsense is not specific to just this issue, it's a broad way of thinking that simplifies things for everyone, which is basically to keep RP'ing, have fun and if there are IG conflicts that get OOC then you can bring it up to a higher authority to get a ruling.. simple, no?

[*Product of Void]

roll or else hehe people actually try that? pff I would either hips away or go invisible. If they seek to continue that I would just log. Sorry rp is a choice and I like my freedom. Telling me how to play is no cool, not something I would do to someone else so I do not want it to happen to me.

My view of rolls are strictly a DM event thing. NPC's and such.

Dm's can check level and adjust for said level.

PvP roll off is just higher level wins majority of the time. Truthfully I figure my characters will fall more for a silver tongued rper then someone with a 50 bluff.

Just like I am willing to craft at darn near cost to get players new toys because its fun for both sides. I am willing to be the dupe or sap for both sides to have fun. Not willing to have my success or failure determined by a random d20 roll added to skills.

Only exception is if a rped out fight with rolls between parties those are silly and fun.

[*Ceremorph]

roll or else hehe people actually try that? pff I would either hips away or go invisible.

Yes, more proof that PoV advocates every single character on the server having one level of shadowdancer. XD

[*Product of Void]

hahaha yeah well one level does no good without dex/skills to make it work.

Plus some builds having 2 levels is a lot better. ;)

[*Ravel's Heart]

I have several thoughts on this matter.


1) Skills are there for a reason

In general, I like skill rolls, especially for non-combat situations. Why? Because as your character advances in level, she improves in many ways beyond blasting monsters into pieces. They become stealthier, more insightful, and in some cases, more glib or frightening.

Broadly speaking, I use them for one thing: to convey additional information to whomever I am playing with. I am using the rolls to either reveal something that is hidden, or to convey something about my character that they would not know without the roll.

Having said that, I see the rolls as an adjunct to, not a substitue for, RP. As a player or as a DM, I would expect to see RP with any roll.


2) When I would roll to convey information

Now for some specific examples:

Diplomacy rolls are awesome if you're not good at roleplaying a diplomatic type.

Bluff's good if you're a poor bullshitter.

Using the rolls as a substitue for RPing is something I disapprove of. This is purely my personal viewpoint, and not meant to be considered a "server rule" or anything of the sort.

This is part of the roleplay/rollplay dichotomy people are alluding to. I could not disagree more with this. You must RP the roll effectively for me to take it seriously. It's most easily understood with an intimidate roll, I think.

Thug: I'm mad at you!
Thug: Intimidate 27 + 18 = 45
Tiny Wizard: So what?

As opposed to:

Thug: *Slowly, he turns to face the wizard, unfolding himself from the barstool until he towers over the tiny wizard. Propping hamlike fists on his hips, he glowers down. A blood vessel on his forehead seems to pulse angrily.*
Thug: *In a soft, dangerous voice.* I'm warning you...
Thug: Intimidate 27 + 18 = 45.
Tiny Wizard: I'll...erm...I'll just be going, then. Goodbye!

I would also like to say that as the rolling person, I should be prepared for the possibility of a dismal roll:

Thug: *Slowly, he turns to face the wizard, unfolding himself from the barstool and propping hamlike fists on his hips. A bood vessel on his forehead seems to pulse angrily.*
Thug: *In a soft, dangerous voice.* I'm warning you...
Thug: Intimidate 27 + 2 = 29.
Thug: *The effect is ruined somewhat by the beads of sweat forming on his forehead and the tiny crack in his voice at the end.*
Tiny wizard: *Smirks* On second thought...why don't you just leave me alone?

Playing the thug, I would never ask for an opposed roll from the Tiny Wizard. I am simply trying to convey a little extra information to Tiny Wizard's player about how intimidating (or unintimidating) my thug is. To my mind, asking for a roll in that situation is very much like autoing; you are trying to dictate what another player or character does. That is not my decision, however. It is up to the other player to decide whether my roll is intimidating or not.

As an aside, I frequently roll bluffs purely to convey OOC that my player is not being truthful. In that case, the roll is almost incidental, but after the roll I might add a little additional line to my emote.

Hardhead: Did you see a kender run by here?
Grezzik: Nope, sorry.
Grezzik: Bluff 2 + 18 = 18
Grezzik: *He shrugs and looks around.* If I spot him, I'll let you know...

Or:

Hardhead: Did you see a kender run by here?
Grezzik: Nope, sorry.
Grezzik: Bluff 2 + 1 = 3
Grezzik: *He fidgets guiltily, not meeting the officer's eyes.*

In either case, it is up to the Hardhead to decide whether to believe me or not. I wouldn't ask him to roll anything, and I would just go along with whatever the officer decided, even if he disbelieved my good roll or completely fell for the bad one. All I am conveying by rolling is that the PC is not being truthful. From there, it is up to the other player.

3) Asking for a roll

When would I consider it appropriate to ask for a die roll? When I as a player have specific information that another character might or might not pick up.

For example, I frequently call for spot, lore, or heal checks from players to detect my PC's partially- covered tattoo that marks them as a slave, to see if they recognize the six-armed symbol on the chain around their necks that is worn by certain priestesses of Hextor, or to see if they spot the developing rash on their neck, suggestive of Gilden's Fleshrot. These are all bits of hidden or obscure information about my character that I am allowing people to have some insight into with a successful check.

I decide in my mind what the player's "successful check" is. I might have several levels, so if they roll a heal check of 15, I might send a tell saying, "You notice a developing infection on Grezzik's neck. It looks nasty." If they roll a 35, though, I might say "You recognize the developing infection on Grezzik's neck as Gilden's Fleshrot. It almost certainly came from being struck by a ghoul in the Gray Waste. It can be healed, but you need a lock of hair from an Unseelie to create the remedy."


4) Opposed Rolls

Always keep in mind that RP is cooperative, not competitive. You and the player across from you are collaborating on a story. Even when your PCs are in conflict with one another, you as players are working together, and neither has the right to dictate how the other player plays. If you find yourself asking for an opposed roll, ask yourself why. If you are looking to convey that hidden information, excellent! If you are using it to arbitrate an OOC dispute with another character, think very hard about why you are doing that.

Most of the time, I think this happens when no one wants "to lose". One player rolls one of his or her high skills and then demands that another player beat the roll or perform in some way that they think appropriate.

Let's go back to the situation where Grezzik bluffs the Harmonium officer.

Hardhead: Did you see a kender run by here?
Grezzik: Nope, sorry.
Grezzik: Bluff 2 + 18 = 18
Grezzik: *He shrugs and looks around.* If I spot him, I'll let you know...
Hardhead: I don't believe you! Tell me what I want to know!
Hardhead: Intimidate: 15 + 16 =31

On the one hand, I might say, "((Hey! Wait a minute! That was a good roll, and there is no way that the Hardhead would think he was lying!" This is how most arguments about die rolls begin. One player or the other is either trying to use rolls to his or her advantage, or ignores another player's good roll.

I have one thing to say about this: work it out! Be mature about it. Be willing to lose sometimes. Back down occasionally, even if you think you are right. If you repeatedly find yourself in a situation where a specific player abuses rolls, speak to him or her OOC privately.

If you feel like you aren't getting anywhere, walk away. There are plenty of people to RP with (and against!) People have differing play styles. If you find a player whose play differs from your own, either work with him or her OOC to find some common ground, or simply move on and play with someone else. Server volume is high enough that that is possible.

I have been on a few times recently as DM and seen these sorts of disputes flare up. Even when I have been there, I have not intervened. Why? Because I have a certain expectation that the players of SCoD are mature enough to work matters out on their own. In 95 cases out of 100, two or three OOC lines clear matters up, and it is back to RP.

These are just my thoughts on the matter, and should not be considered another approaching a "judgement", but I hope that people will consider their use of rolls in light of this post.

And I apologize for the length.

[*WhenWizardsWar]

Bluff-Spot, listen or WISDOM not will. Will is to resist mind altering or mind control.

Plus this make it so everyone has a chance to succeed at lieing, because even with a +20 bluff theres a chance that the one lieing might still get away with it, where as with will save depending on the persion NO one would ever be able to lie to you.

Ill post my ideas on counters in a bit

[*Ceremorph]

Hardhead: Did you see a kender run by here?
Grezzik: Nope, sorry.
Grezzik: Bluff 2 + 18 = 18
Grezzik: *He shrugs and looks around.* If I spot him, I'll let you know...

Hardhead: Did you fail math in school?
Grezzik: Bluff 1 + 1 = 247
Grezzik: *Smirks at the dull-witted guardsman* Not at all! In fact, my major was Xaositect mathematics!

[*TheFrozenWind]

In regards to my post with the whole thing on bluff being awesome if you're a poor bullshitter, there was a bit of sarcasm there :D

[*Ravel's Heart]

Hardhead: Did you see a kender run by here?
Grezzik: Nope, sorry.
Grezzik: Bluff 2 + 18 = 18
Grezzik: *He shrugs and looks around.* If I spot him, I'll let you know...

Hardhead: Did you fail math in school?
Grezzik: Bluff 1 + 1 = 247
Grezzik: *Smirks at the dull-witted guardsman* Not at all! In fact, my major was Xaositect mathematics!

:mellow:

:o

:lol:

Now is a good time, I think, to introduce my new vampire PC.



He has a +5 ECL so he'll max out around level 28. Or something.

[Edit: I can't believe anyone actually read that thing!]

[*SanguineOrchid]

I don't like dice play, generally I look at what was rolled on the d20 to determine how well they did rather than bothering with whatever the skill mod was. I MUCH prefer to base my play around what my character has and doesn't have then go from there. If I build a character with a high intimidate I play it as intimidating, if I build it with a high bluff I make it a good liar. How other people react is up to them, some will be intimidated or not regardless of what dice or character sheets say just like some will like a character whether it has a high charisma or not.

Play is far more important to me than dice or stats.

The only time I employ dice in RP is for physical activities that are opposed where both players are like "I'm not sure what would happen." Usually this is strength or dex based on my part. Trying to grab the other person and being resisted or trying to dodge out of the way of that person. These are far more variable and directly opposed situations. Try to grab, well I can roll strength to see how hard I am to resist, they can roll dex to move or strength to oppose whichever they like or even ask that I roll dex to actually touch them. In all cases I usually send a whisper to the person before I do anything physical at all to see how they want to handle it, "My character is about to... how do you want to handle it? Dice, no dice, accept or decline any preference?"

I played a barbarian once that was a hulking slab of meat with the mentality of a six year old, absolutely hideous and the common sense of a rock. She was one of the most favored characters I ever produced on that server by the population because she was easily amused and very nurturing (she also crushed people in a blind rage when someone endangered the children she was playing with).

Reputation was then and is still effective to me. People knew she was a gentle soul who wouldn't hurt anyone unless provoked, they also knew that once provoked she didn't stop until the person she was beating on stopped moving which was when she would burst into tears. Should she have had to make an intimidate roll when she stood up and tore a sapling out of the ground to beat up the "bad person"? I'd kinda think that sort of thing speaks for itself when the play is right regardless of the rolls that could be made.