Killing Paladins And Faction Changes.

[*Tipsgraph]

I'd say it's very dangerous to say intent has anything to do with it. Circumstances can have an effect, but if it were intent... well, as an example:

A person's absolutely insane, and believes the only way to save a person's soul from eternal damnation is to kill them and eat their liver with a nice chianti. Is it evil for him to do this? Oh my, yes. Totally. Does he think it's evil? No. He thinks he's a savior.

Similarly, a character might truly believe that money is everything, and that it's above morality, and so it's not evil to kill a paladin if it means keeping theirs. Quite simply... they'd be wrong.


Now! Circumstances can change things. Because, indeed, a character who does not control their own actions, as under an impulse, does not have to answer for morality. Similarly, having a loved one at gunpoint (figuratively) is a circumstance that might change things.

It's often a pretty tough call.

[*Product of Void]

hmm let me see.

rogues can acquire jink with out ever raising a blade.

1. Beg pretend to be homeless and ask for coin.
2. spy sell secrets you hear about.
3. gambling
4. robbery with no intent to harm might run away.

Also take a clueless berk, they walk down the street drinking what they hope to be an ale admiring a gold ring they found on the road. Next they are in some meadow wondering if their ale is spiked, only to see a glimering portal behind. Wandering about they then see a big shiny human with a sword charging towards them.

choices
1. Throw ale at them and torch to the groan.
2. Draw blade, throw taunt and pummel their face in.
3. Ask questions beg for them to quit beating you.
4. Run like you are on fire back to the portal.

Reasons for hunting there.
1. Pc is ignorant of the realm seeing them as just unfriendly humans.
2. PC does not care about taking human life and wants to kill things and take coin
3. PC was tricked though if not very smart/wise might not have seen through the fact they are paladins. screaming "I smite you", or "by the name of Greyskull I purge you from the lands".
4. Player wants Phat loot and EPs...

I think Dm's questioning a characters reason to be there is a good idea. As long as we do not run into an event were say Lizard men talk and ask "Why are you killing my people we farm, raise orphans and worship pelor. You just stabbed or family story teller in the gut then robbed our chest of stuff to be donated to the poor. "

While its an interesting concept to have a race turned good or have good within it. It kinda hoses Good characters to hunt there again from one event.

[*Xynisto]

I know this one is on the edge but the rogue has no intention to kill, only to get away safe with the loot. If he is forced into a fight he cannot avoid and the paladin is not only 'police' but also executioner, then he has no choice if he wants to leave alive. Either him or the paladin.

Ofcourse the rogue can be blamed for going in Mercuria for the robbery and put himself into this situation, and as a result killing the paladin. The rogue may be send to jail for this act, but this may also be for Ravel's heart explanation of ending the life of a beloved one with great suffering (in many countries this is forbidden).

Law punishes acts that are forbidden and that cannot be excused for, whether they are seen as good, neutral or evil, while other acts, such as killing related to honor is being praised in other cultures with different values (mostly islamic countries).

Sigil with doors to planes can thereofre have many inhabitants where killing in a certain form is seen as natural, different to our own judgements, and they do not see as evil but merely ritual, honor or whatever.

[*ManyFaced]

Robbery in itself is an evil act, so using that as an excuse why murder isn't evil is rather silly. What makes it worse is that anyone going to Mercuria 100% knows they will fight to defend their plane, so the robbers have further little excuse. They know to steal from the paladins will involve killing many of them.

And I think events like Void said is a good thing,

"I think Dm's questioning a characters reason to be there is a good idea. As long as we do not run into an event were say Lizard men talk and ask "Why are you killing my people we farm, raise orphans and worship pelor. You just stabbed or family story teller in the gut then robbed our chest of stuff to be donated to the poor. "

NPCs should be treated the same as PCs, and I find it odd that many of the farmed races can be neutral or otherwise. On the same note, it could be considered an "IT'S A TRAP" and the good appearance of the race is a ruse. But isn't there something innately odd about traveling into a plane that you have nothing to deal with just to slay everything you see?

[*Ceremorph]

In my mind, the most egregious examples (and the ones where that good hit would matter) is when actual paladins and clerics of LG gods are killing things in Mercuria, which I have seen.

But game mechanics come into play here too.

If your CN rogue is murdering paladins, it's a little bit different than if your LG Paladin of Bahamut is doing it. And let's focus on the truth of things... aside from a line on the character sheet that nobody that DMs can see, alignment only matters to a small group of classes that can lose their abilities if they stray from the alignment. Unfortunately, there is no in-game possibility YET to punish, say, a LG Cleric who does this, who should find themselves abandoned by their god.

[*pelhikano]

But game mechanics come into play here too.

Yeah, for example the paladin spawn's Smite Evil doesn't work on PCs that are not evil alignment. So if you're Neutral, you avoid at least one dangerous major ability of the spawns totally.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

As long as we do not run into an event were say Lizard men talk and ask "Why are you killing my people we farm, raise orphans and worship pelor. You just stabbed or family story teller in the gut then robbed our chest of stuff to be donated to the poor."

Hmm.. interesting idea <.< I'll also make their loot contain pictures drawn by their children with "Mom" "Dad" and "Me" written in them in childish manner to bring greater effect. :D


... maybe not it all at once, but I kinda love idea of making people possibly guilt for some monsters they might've killed. No alignment hit or anything, since they're still monsters, but just for fun of it.

[*Tantarus]

My argument was not so much that it should not keep shifting you to evil. I was more frustrated that I was told by a DM this would not be an issue. So now that I know, it is no big deal.

Though this is an RP server, it would be nice to see some RP before death by solar(Or three spawned on top of you). Also for the record with a assassin/rogue/monk that is LE this is not easy to farm, I can get 2 shotted by Smite evils that have hit for up to 130ish on crits.

But back on topic, As I said before some RP before death by solar would make it fun and interesting, I gave some explains in a earlier post. But just suddenly having 3 solars dropped on your head is hardly fun. We where already dieing form time to from just the regular things, Smite evil crits, or a bigbys pretty much means death.

Edit: missed this post.

*The solar surveys the carnage around him, staring sadly at the torn and broken bodies of his friends and allies before turning his ancient, expressionless eyes onto you. He speaks a single word.*  Explain.

This would have been great, likely followed by an argument and proving they create undead, and likely our swift death.

[*ManyFaced]

In my mind, the most egregious examples (and the ones where that good hit would matter) is when actual paladins and clerics of LG gods are killing things in Mercuria, which I have seen.

But game mechanics come into play here too.

If your CN rogue is murdering paladins, it's a little bit different than if your LG Paladin of Bahamut is doing it. And let's focus on the truth of things... aside from a line on the character sheet that nobody that DMs can see, alignment only matters to a small group of classes that can lose their abilities if they stray from the alignment. Unfortunately, there is no in-game possibility YET to punish, say, a LG Cleric who does this, who should find themselves abandoned by their god.

An older server of mine gave items(that didn't require being equipped to function) that had 100% spell failure.

[*tlantl]

No, and ideally they would then instead cast hold person on you and toss you out the portal, and if a DM is there, they might indeed do that.

That layer of Mercuria is fiercely guarded and NO outsiders are allowed there... it's like area 51 ;)

Then why even have it here, if there is no reason to go there?

And why would any one who goes there complain about having their alignment shifted. If you go to a good plane to murder and pillage then you are not a good person.

conversely those who go to an evil plane to raid and are evil might have to worry about having their alignments shifted toward good. ( This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since evil killing evil might still be an evil act(?))