Some Concerns With Racial Prcs

[*coyotesage]

Thank you Xndar, that is actually a compromise. Not the same one I offered, but not one that basically changes the subject.

[*Lucadia]

Ah , but see. Such things as if a pc wants to play a Feyri, we are told we should just make a half fiend and then call it good. Iv actually taken that advice for making a pc that will eventual grow in leather wings for their draconic heritage using the same race.

Its less work for our lovely developers to add in simple stuff like this, then to assume we want another model and race to work around, (and alignment locked).

Many devils have tails, but they are great and monstrous or not humanoid. Most of the devils with both tails and wings fall under the unique status too (like Glaysa) . Thats not to say, that maybe some cross breeding goes along there as well, such as devils and half fiends trying strengthen a blood line.

I will say this though, some the racial changes are going well. Something I just feel are "okay" and could be better. Perhaps I would like to see all the evil outsiders not just locked to advacing sorc and warlock. We have a great deal of base classes. Eryiness could advance arcane archer, possibly.

Perhaps a creature that favors Orcus could have bonus toward being clerics or spirit shamans.

[*Ceremorph]

A few things of note:

1. Alersia, I wish good luck to anyone who wants their character to be both erinyes and brachina. Each has a CLASSNOT in their prerequisites including the other. So it's not possible.

2. I think the tails would work for someone who is NOT taking the erinyes or brachina but wants to take the Baatezu race. And by making a "normal" build thereby, they could make the equivalent of a Falxugon, or Pact Devil, or Harvester Devil.

3. Actually when half-fiend is rebuilt as a template class, you will literally be able to make a fey'ri with it: an elf character who takes the half-fiend template class.

4. And finally, just because I'm making a couple from each alignment doesn't mean it's ending there. Down the road other racial classes may come into play, but I don't want to spend half a year working on LE racial classes at the expense of the people patiently waiting for Death Knights or Eladrin.

[*Hydra]

I'm a bit late to the debate, but my main concern is a bit different since I do not play special races. I relay tried them a few times its simply not my cup of tea, I prefer to stick to half-something or regular humans in general, because I prefer to have more flexibility or to have the room to fully specialize.

Now we can fairly agree that the new race classes are doing a great thing when it comes to give regular races an edge because they can use 4 classes how they want.

However its when it comes to the specialization the new races are doing a lot better, making them even more advantageous. When you compare what some of these new races get for a pure 3+ ECL, they're very good.

Lets make a few examples :

Githyanki :
+3 dex, +3 con, -2 wis (+4 net stat gain)
SR 11+
ECL +2
(Favored class fighter)

Yuan-ti pureblood :
+2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha (+6 net stat gain)
+1 ac
SR 11+
ECL +2
(Favored class ranger)

Compared to

Tanar'ri :
+4 dex, +4 charisma (+8 net stat gain)
Immunity to poison
Resistance 25% to electricity
10 DR, acid, cold, fire.
+1 natural armor
11 SR
ECL +3
(Favored class : the highest level)

Its pretty obvious they do get A LOT for that +1 ECL point and they're going to be able to update these stats without too much of a hassle through classes, however we could argue for quite some time about ECL and how they are balanced, I think the main issue lies in the classes themselves.

"Normal" races usually have to dip into epic feats or classes like RDD to get a lot of perks, while these classes do get something tailored for them with little to not loss.

For example :
1) They are a lot easier to get than RDD (no need for X points in required skills, easier to handle 1 level class dips, that are also more thematic.
2) Some of these classes, give full high AB progression, sometimes more than 1 strong save, more hit points than the classes they're usually associated with and more than 2+ skill points.
3) In case of spell casting classes : Usually a good spell progression, or not worse than palemaster.

Again as the OP stated the succubi do gets a lot. Let's say I'm playing a sorceress and if I'm willing to sacrifice one 1 caster level, I'm "just" getting this :

- Wings (to move faster)
- Full caster progression (minus one level)
- Better AC +9
- More skill points (4+ instead of 2+)
- A better AB (medium instead of low)
- Various DRs and immunities
- Buffed stats (+5 charisma, +2 dex)
- Change self
- Draining kiss
- Damage reduction 10/ good
- Summon Tanar'ri

What I propose to solve these issues, is either increase progressively the ECL of powerful classes (like the lich does), or simply make them have downsides, like low skill points, nerfed spell progression, only one high save, d4 hp, low ab, and perhaps more pre-requs.

[*Ceremorph]

Some good points there Hydra, but Alersia has done some lovely comparisons, not with our more "standard" races, but instead with the lowly human. And at max level, it really does wind up being a bit of a wash, not only because of the three levels worth of BAB, skills, saves, and an extra epic feat, but primarily because of the class limitations. It's not very difficult to make a very strong build with one, but it IS difficult to make a powerbuild that will match up well with a well-designed human, if for no other reason than the ability to "waste" a few levels in a class. Whether it's free feats and EDM from grabbing two levels of cleric, HiPS from shadowdancer, or synergized bonuses from other combinations (divine might cleric + frezerker, blackguard save bonuses, ASOC metamagic, divine/monk/sacred fist, and so on).

[*Lucadia]

I wont be satisfied until we can have our fine feathered fiends with a snakey tail like the npcs that mill around in the wards :blink:

---

I do have to say, I feel that a lot of the races that do not go into racial prcs are going feel more flexible for building.. Despite all the cool things we got going on, I spent 90 pct of my time on a pretend Silvanesti sun-elf.

Playing a true blooded outsider has not been my cup of tea (and Im surely at fault here).

Now heres something when you go to implement the werewolf template class. What would the true benefit over the current ones we got other then customization model wise? As they stand, they are pretty good for ecl 3 race and not over powering. What can we expect in lossing a class slot? (or will they even take up a class slot?)

My own current werewolf is a fighter/monk/shadowdancer/future weapon master with all stats to wisdom and int.

[*Hydra]

Some good points there Hydra, but Alersia has done some lovely comparisons, not with our more "standard" races, but instead with the lowly human. And at max level, it really does wind up being a bit of a wash, not only because of the three levels worth of BAB, skills, saves, and an extra epic feat, but primarily because of the class limitations. It's not very difficult to make a very strong build with one, but it IS difficult to make a powerbuild that will match up well with a well-designed human, if for no other reason than the ability to "waste" a few levels in a class. Whether it's free feats and EDM from grabbing two levels of cleric, HiPS from shadowdancer, or synergized bonuses from other combinations (divine might cleric + frezerker, blackguard save bonuses, ASOC metamagic, divine/monk/sacred fist, and so on).

Well yes, these races loses in flexibility, but they stack up a lot more than regular humans, when it comes to specialization

That's the problem with some of these classes, for the the succubi that gives a lot more in terms of specialization and raw gains compared that what humans or other classes could get in terms of class dips, I mean with this succubi class, you can take a sorcerer / favored soul level 1, focus on the succubi, pick a prestige class, reach the 20th level of spellcaster to have your divine power or all your best spells (you've enough charisma to make up for more extra spells per day than any human after all), then you're free to pick another class you want. That's what a lot of human powerbuilds already do.

The big issue, is that some of these races classes are absolutely better than the regular classes or even prestige classes their pre reqs are a no brainier to the point you're going to ignore your base class after the first level and only take it as a filler, especially as the price of admission requires no more effort than one level dip and a specific alignement. Even RDD has the decency to ask for something before you can actually pick it up. So yes, once again, what about asking for a bit more requirements for something that is an extremely powerful class or balance it a little when it comes to skillpoints/AB/hitpoints without removing core features ?

[*Ceremorph]

Lucadia: the lycanthrope interpretation will probably be a short class, most likely between 3 and 5 levels. Werewolf with a melee focus, wererat with a stealth focus, with minor ability gain. But the primary focus will be on an improved shapeshifting mechanic. But most importantly, it will be open to different races, allowing for elf werewolves and tiefling wererats, just to throw out a couple of examples (any humanoid or giant is the PnP option).

And right now I'm thinking it likely that it will probably be +2 ECL, which is almost entirely based on the ability to shift form.

Hydra... I hate to say it, but when half the complaints are that the racial PRCs are "OMG too powerful" and half are "Why'd you nerf this?", it's probably balanced just about right. The idea is to make sure that the people who WANT to play these races have an enjoyable time, without falling into the "if you make a character with class X, you're an idiot not to make him race Y" trap.

And really, any adjustment at this point would boil down to two questions.
1. Is this race/class so difficult to play that it stops being enjoyable?
2. Is this race/class so crazy-powerful from 1-30 that it stops providing any challenge?

If the answer to either of those is "yes", then consideration should be given. But a simple case of "well if I build THIS specific build it might be almost as strong as an EDM gish buff-machine cleric"... anyone can log onto nwm2db.com and find a wacky powerbuild that can solo the Painbringer, after all, so it's not like everybody is going to rush out and make that specific succubus build just because it's powerful; otherwise nobody would play anything BUT EDM gish buff-machine clerics.

[*Devil's Elysium]

Some good points there Hydra, but Alersia has done some lovely comparisons, not with our more "standard" races, but instead with the lowly human. And at max level, it really does wind up being a bit of a wash, not only because of the three levels worth of BAB, skills, saves, and an extra epic feat, but primarily because of the class limitations. It's not very difficult to make a very strong build with one, but it IS difficult to make a powerbuild that will match up well with a well-designed human, if for no other reason than the ability to "waste" a few levels in a class. Whether it's free feats and EDM from grabbing two levels of cleric, HiPS from shadowdancer, or synergized bonuses from other combinations (divine might cleric + frezerker, blackguard save bonuses, ASOC metamagic, divine/monk/sacred fist, and so on).

Well yes, these races loses in flexibility, but they stack up a lot more than regular humans, when it comes to specialization

That's the problem with some of these classes, for the the succubi that gives a lot more in terms of specialization and raw gains compared that what humans or other classes could get in terms of class dips, I mean with this succubi class, you can take a sorcerer / favored soul level 1, focus on the succubi, pick a prestige class, reach the 20th level of spellcaster to have your divine power or all your best spells (you've enough charisma to make up for more extra spells per day than any human after all), then you're free to pick another class you want. That's what a lot of human powerbuilds already do.

The big issue, is that some of these races classes are absolutely better than the regular classes or even prestige classes their pre reqs are a no brainier to the point you're going to ignore your base class after the first level and only take it as a filler, especially as the price of admission requires no more effort than one level dip and a specific alignement. Even RDD has the decency to ask for something before you can actually pick it up. So yes, once again, what about asking for a bit more requirements for something that is an extremely powerful class or balance it a little when it comes to skillpoints/AB/hitpoints without removing core features ?

Again, I don't understand the point. FS builds can already solo the entire server once they hit a sufficient level and an ECL makes that more difficult. You think RDD is more restrictive than a racial PrC? Okay. Take it as human. Oh. Right. Take it as CG. Oh, you can't do that either. Have you actually compared the classes? d4 HD compared to d12, +8 STR +2 CON/INT/CHA for a total of +14 compared to +5 CHA +2 DEX for a total of +7. If you were talking about Monadic Deva, you might have a reasonable comparison, but I don't see it named.

[*Hydra]

Again, I don't understand the point. FS builds can already solo the entire server once they hit a sufficient level and an ECL makes that more difficult. You think RDD is more restrictive than a racial PrC? Okay. Take it as human. Oh. Right. Take it as CG. Oh, you can't do that either. Have you actually compared the classes? d4 HD compared to d12, +8 STR +2 CON/INT/CHA for a total of +14 compared to +5 CHA +2 DEX for a total of +7. If you were talking about Monadic Deva, you might have a reasonable comparison, but I don't see it named.

Well if you pick succubi for a fighter like PC its going to suck yes, but why would you do that ? Its clearly pleading you to play as a caster which are already the most powerfull class in the game and make it even better than what you could play with any other race.

Hydra... I hate to say it, but when half the complaints are that the racial PRCs are "OMG too powerful" and half are "Why'd you nerf this?", it's probably balanced just about right. The idea is to make sure that the people who WANT to play these races have an enjoyable time, without falling into the "if you make a character with class X, you're an idiot not to make him race Y" trap.

And really, any adjustment at this point would boil down to two questions.
1. Is this race/class so difficult to play that it stops being enjoyable?
2. Is this race/class so crazy-powerful from 1-30 that it stops providing any challenge?

Well, I'd suggest to take the problem the other way : let's make everything easy so everyone can enjoy playing the stinky builds and the sub par races ? The power builders are going to stomp through in any case and PVP isn't a concern.