Summoned Pets And Transfomed Mages

[*Ceremorph]

Okay, before I start I'm going to make an admission that many of you already know: I am really against PvP personally, and probably will never willingly engage in it as a player, at least via game mechanics.

Now, that does not mean I don't realize that some people really enjoy it, or that I think less of those who do. Nor do I think that having an "optimal" build means that you're incapable of decent RP. Although again, I think my position on "characters with one level of class X" is pretty widely known, if that gives you the character you want, then by all means do it.

But back to PvP. I'd like to bring up what I consider the "downside" of PvP, which doesn't actually effect the people involved in it; it's the bystanders. I am sure that I am not the only one who finds a good deal of entertainment in getting to watch things that don't necessarily involve my character, or in my capacity as a DM involve my ongoing plots. Hell, as DM I've often lurked in areas because I stumbled into good emotes and was interested in seeing more (and no, I do not mean in private rooms. Get your mind out of the gutter!). However, when two people rush into PvP, basically all that the bystanders get to do is either watch two cartoon avatars hacking randomly at one another. Nobody's going to bother emoting during a fight, plus there's the fact that it's almost always going to end in death.

For those of you who enjoy your PvP? I'm not going to tell you to stop doing something you like, which also is allowed by server rules. However.... I'd like to remind that combat doesn't have anything to do with skill points. You want to hit someone? You can always roll a d20 and add your attack bonus, and compare that to the other person's AC. Or cast the spell and tell what the save DC is. This, in my mind, allows for two things: firstly, there's never going to be any doubt that an attack is happenning. And second, it gives an additional point to emote backing down (or in the case of realizing that the other person is ten levels higher than you from that attack bonus, or has an AC you'll only hit on a natural 20, to emote getting thrashed around!).

Finally, I would like to put something in perspective. Try to assume that every NPC has a tiny DM living inside of it. No matter how great the provocation, realism would assume that if you whip out your weapon and stab someone to death in the middle of the bazaar, there would be a dozen or so hardheads showing up at your door the next morning. I'm not going to spend my time policing this sort of thing, and I hardly would expect the players of L10 Harmonium characters to attempt to arrest the L30 who could kill them with a thought. So if a fight is what everyone wants... take it into the arena (if it's formal), into Undersigil, or hells, into a back alley. Because if enough brawling is brought to the Lady of Pain's attention, she may just decide to stick the offending berk into a Maze. :lol:

[*Lost and not Found]

Agreed, many if not most insults can be ignored or RPed through easily. It's the standing in face insults toward a known-to-be violent character with "Well what are you going to do about it? <insert continuing insults here>" that tend to get dirty for me.

I need to ask this question even though I do not expect an answer to it, what is a well-known character?

I would like to share some of my previous NWN2 PW experiences related to this matter: I used to be rather active player on a NWN2 PW called 'X', I had been there for roughly a half-a-year, playing with the same lot of people, roughly at the same time slot. However, for something of a week's duration I played on a different time slot. I had a running with a player that I recogniced from the forums, who in turn seemed to think that I was a newcomer, playing with a lower level character, and thus he decided to 'roughen up' my character. It did not go quite as well as he had planned. As an after effect, we got yet another of those multi-page topics on the forums where the members of the board complained about the players who do not role-play until reaching epic levels, who have reached their epic levels in a matter of a week, etc. While the fact remained that I had been on that server twice as much as most of them and their higher level characters.

Anyhow, I would argue that it is not enough to be 'known', it is required to live up with the role itself. The variety in different NWN2 appearances is highly limited, if we ignore the victoria's secret selection for human and elven females, and how majority of the Cage's population sports spikes in their garments, thus it is required to know how to emote a scary guy.

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[*Fell Star]

All very good and/or interesting points and points of view.

One thing, in case I hadn't mentioned it already, is that if you are the aggressor in any PvP situation, it is polite to defer to your "victim" by allowing them to choose the style of PvP combat, whether that be mechanics, mixed rolls, straight RP, etc.

Pickers can't be choosers. ;)

[*SanguineOrchid]

When you step into a place your character normally RPs and look around realizing that you have in some way abused (usually violently) more than half of the people around you and that this occurs more than 70% of the time with other people warning newer people around that your character is dangerous, that is known-to-be violent.

There's also the times when a group gathers around the fringes of your character knowing that a newcomer is likely to set them off, waiting to watch the brawl when that newcomer clashes with the one the group already knows.

When it comes to CvC, the nature of the character inevitably defines a lot of how the situation is going to play out. If the character is the type to care about authority then likely the brawl can be moved. If the character is canny, moving the location to a less public place can give time to cast spells and whatnot to increase the chance of success. If it's a "jump first" character facing one who needs prep time, moving can be a really bad idea, facing the potential arrest might be better than the loss of face.

Style of player also impacts this a lot, some players really like talking it out OOC before it happens, some would rather stay immersed until the situation is resolved then discuss how everything went down and to prepare for the next encounter. Personally, I'm the latter, I like seeing how it plays out then giving credit to my opponent for good moves and working with them to set up the vendetta aspect. I also nearly always expect some sort of fall out for what my characters do, be it from authority figures or from friends or the person coming back later to seek revenge.

CvC can be as much a catalyst for more RP as it is a conclusion.

[*Ceremorph]

I also nearly always expect some sort of fall out for what my characters do, be it from authority figures or from friends or the person coming back later to seek revenge.

CvC can be as much a catalyst for more RP as it is a conclusion.

Yes, to a point.

However, that brings one thing to mind. Another server I played on several years ago had, at one, point, a somewhat thriving "Guards" faction in the most populated area. However, the server was full PvP, and eventually it got to the point where if you logged on with your guard character, you immediately wound up with a line of people coming up to complain that they had been attacked in the city. This, of course, led to nobody wanting to play a guard.

[*SanguineOrchid]

Here we have the exact opposite, guards so outstandingly bored they'll jump at any opportunity to join in story lines even if it doesn't fit for a Harmonium to be involved.

I don't see any problems giving the Hardheads something to worry about in the short term, so long as we have an attentive staff. I've been on many many servers where PvP ran rampant and more often than not what happened there ended up being a small group of individuals banding together to beat down the rest eventually reclaiming order in character, or the staff saying "This is enough", altering the rule set or enforcing a preexisting rule set then enforcing it vigorously until the population accepted it.

Personally I haven't seen any PvP I wasn't directly involved in, in some way. When I sit around for three-four days with nothing violent happening nor hearing of anything violent happening I tend to think nothing violent has happened. Overall the server looks fairly peaceful to me where CvC is concerned.

Political violence is another matter entirely, that's where most of the real viciousness seems to be.

[*Ravel's Heart]

This is an interesting thread. By and large, I have enjoyed reading what people have had to say. Reasonable minds can differ, of course, and I have both agreed and disagreed with some points here.

These are simply my thoughts, and should in no way be considered "official policy".



OOC Consent

When my PC gets into a situation which could eventually devolve in CvC, I always send a tell saying, "Feel free to kill him if it is in character for your character to do so." I do this because people are sometimes reluctant to engage in CvC for fear of later reprisals, either IC or OOC. I encourage people to screenie the consent, too, just so they completely understand that they have permission to act however they like.



Game Mechanics versus Emoted Combat

I know that Ceremorph and others enjoy Emoted Combat. I feel like that's a lot more fun in PnP than online. It simply takes too long. By the time I have added up my BAB, feat bonuses, figured out what AC I am attacking ("Do range touched attacks oppose Dodge Modifier plus Shield modifier? I never remember... Wait...my shield is +2...is that a shield bonus? Gah!")

I find the mechanics portion of the game to be largely boring. I'll let the game engine, flawed as it is, sort all of that out for me. Let's RP every emote up to the first swing of the mace or first muttered spell. Then...get it over in 15 seconds so we can begin RPing the aftermath.

With lower level combatants this is less onerous, but as a rule of thumb...just get the actual fight over with so we can get back to RP.



The Denouement

Server rules say that PCs should avoid each other for a day after CvC unless there are extenuating circumstances. One thing that I would like to add is that if one party clearly overmatches the other, the more powerful PC can always simply stop attacking and emote something like, "*Bravhak steps back, panting at his foe.* Yield or die!"

This lets everyone save their respawn penalties or coins of life.

Finally, and again, this is just my personal preference, my PCs who are killed in CvC who are not raised IC by some other PC are permanently dead. Of course, I tend to treat many of my PCs as if they were NPCs, really. They are created for specific purposes by and large.

Having said that, if my PC has not formed at attachment to someone strong enough for them to raise them IC, it is unlikely that I have formed much of an attachment with them, either.

One thing I would add would be that they need not be raised on the spot. If my PC is killed in a back alley, but has a wife who would raise him as soon as he heard, that is sufficient for me.



Character Level

Relative character level is hidden on this server. There are good reasons for it, but I have a personal rule that I only instigate CvC with characters of higher level than me. In this respect, I have an advantage over other players in that I have a rough idea of many characters' levels. Since most of my characters are of rather low level (below level 5), it is not particularly limiting.

[*StealthedAssailant]

Simple solution here:

We make a PVP Club for people to join up that do not want OOC warning when the time comes to step up.

If the Character is NOT on the list then OOC permission must be granted for PVP from both parties, no exceptions, it's the house rules. If the player wants to be difficult about Moving on or admitting defeat then that is an infraction as well and can be reported. Same rules still apply such as all PvP CvC MUST HAVE IC REASONS.

This is the safest solution for everyone, it's basically AUTO OOC CONSENT. If you don't want to waste the time to type it out IG and break immersion put your name on the list.

If there is no objection I will make a thread for this list that will keep the character names of those who want to participate, you can always take your character's name off or request to be removed or added from the list depending on your characters attitude towards violent conflict. I would be the first one to put my characters on that list, even though I prefer emoted conflicts I still like getting the surprise on people if the situation calls for it.

So would this be an acceptable compromise?

[*Lost and not Found]

We've had a topic or two about this PvP club, but I'm afraid the idea has not yet taken much of a wind under it's wings.

[*DM-Stitch(es)]

Nor will I support such a club as DM. I have seen it murder other servers RP wise.

Full stop.