Stalwart Defender Changes

[*Ceremorph]

I'd have to agree that the ten-level investment is what sold me on this, because it prevents insane synergies (and also keeps it from being part of yet another OP gish build). Yes, there's an impressive overlap with ICE, but in my mind that's worth it for taking the full progression; with that in mind, I'd be wildly in favor of similar L10 advantages to classes like Divine Champion and Weapon Master, both of which currently have no reason whatsoever to take a full progression of.

[*Mick64]

I'm loving it, non-magic using fighters can actually tank for once.

Non-magic users could always tank, they just had to be built for it.

That said I don't think the current Stalwart Defender is unfair, before it was a niche pick viable only for the most hardcore of dedicated mundane tanks (It was viable there, but very niche). Now it's a solid pick for anyone who wants defenses, but not a must-pick on any fighter-based character either. And more importantly, it has useful actives, which makes the play experience that much more engaging.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

You don't actually need full 10 level progression for the defensive stance, just 5. That alone might be easily worth it for some builds. And my worry isn't that Stalwart defender is going to wreck the world, my worry is that the moment a class or feat(s) are added which fix their one weakness (reliable damage source), then it will wreck the world. I'd much rather be pre-emptive than make yet another "oh they don't need any help, just look at this one specific class" or the alternative where it's not even being considered and then have just generally much tougher and better class combo.

And don't even get me started about EDMs, HiPS, and spellcasters, I've been one of the most verbose people requesting change for them as well. And this is also problem for all of them, nobody's willing to admit any problem or willing to toy with the thought for real.

[*Ceremorph]

Well Otyugh, the issue with EDM, HiPS, and spellcasting is we're about six years too late to make any changes to those (and I wasn't here for the initial creation of the server, so nyaaaah), primarily because all of these are features people base their entire builds around, and if you do anything that could be defined as a "nerf", suddenly you're angering your playerbase by forcing them to rebuild or worse still, abandon an entire character concept.

Sure it would solve a lot of problems to put a cap on EDM, require 5 levels of shadowdancer for HiPS, or severely weaken the effects of Avasculate, Isaac's, and Bigby... but just like our economy and power creep issues could be easily fixed by a vault wipe (the two most feared words in NWN), getting the desired results while driving away part of the playerbase isn't really a viable tradeoff.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

And in avoiding to do nothing, you'll get to keep saying "can't add this, because..." "It'll make X more powerful..."

Nerfing is one thing, opening options for new another. Charisma is more or less "can't get any more boost because it's already the most powerful stat" and mages have bigbys, clerics have divine power and word of faith, and so on. Because of powerful buffs, it's hard to give casters more potent offensive magic and so on.

I prefer "room for improvement" more than "can't improve them because it'd make them too tough". And incase of Stalwart Defender, I'd personally rather get more offensive option than be denied of it because then the power balance might tip over. So yeah... I'll rather keep that option open :P same goes for most of the other features preventing additions of interesting options.

[*Jiv]

Seriously, I refuse.

Good.

Thank you for trying to generate a little balance in build options.

You're doing a positive thing here making changes like this. Keep up the good work.

[*Whitefly]

This kind of change is good. It does open new options. It makes a class that didn't see much play an interesting an attractive choice for new characters and new players alike. Sure, EDM and stuff like that will always be a nuisance in regards to balance and I'd love to see some light nerfing too, but that kind of thing does upset people and in NWN2, a game that's pretty old, you can't affording to scare off players like that.