Bigbies

[*ovarf]

I just reread my post and I noticed that it will be easy to look at it and think i am crying nerf mages let me make something clear I AM NOT wanting that.

What I would like is for players that are not playing Casters or HiPSers to have a function other then "sure lets take him along we can always use another meat shield."

now if they could become viable powers in their own right that would be nice but that is not going to happen so i guess a special place where they can go and pretend they matter would be good enuf.

[*pelhikano]

It's unfortunately a fact that in the original D&D game magic is simply overpowering, even at low levels but especially so at higher levels. NWN2 actually implements that correctly then because we have the same exact situation, so we can't really do anything fundamentally different that wouldn't basically become a different game system altogether.

[*ovarf]

agreed but there was always such a disconnect from the reality of how powerful magic was (completely overwhelming) to how the game worlds worked. Most of the D&D game worlds generally had melee types as the powers and casters as the support staff which always struck me as odd since as shown in the NWN2 PW implementation it would be the opposite.

[*The_Tarot]

Or you could look at it like this. If your character is wanting to be entirely self-sustaining. Better unequip those magic items, because they wern't made by you. You must be living off the scraps of mages in that case too! :P

Asking a mage to put a spell in a potion for you is alot easier to achieve than asking for an enchanter.

Your character is in a social world, and in order to become more powerful. He has to interact with others, just like everyone else.

You're already aware what you're going to be facing, Except if a DM is spawning monsters on you for shits and giggles. Drink the potion prior to engaging.

[*The_Tarot]

It's unfortunately a fact that in the original D&D game magic is simply overpowering, even at low levels but especially so at higher levels. NWN2 actually implements that correctly then because we have the same exact situation, so we can't really do anything fundamentally different that wouldn't basically become a different game system altogether.

In orginal D&D, Yeah. Magic can achieve some incredible things. In NWN2. Mages are only powerful because a few select spells.

Weaken the only spells they have going for them, and they'll need to be replaced with something else.

In NWN2. Prepared Melee (Prepared as in, Proper equipment, consumables.) is far, far superior in combat than mages.

In PvE. They do superior damage. Where a Mage is lucky if he can crank out 120 a round, for a limited time. While the melee is easily achieving 200-400 without such limited resources.

[*pelhikano]

In PvE. They do superior damage. Where a Mage is lucky if he can crank out 120 a round, for a limited time. While the melee is easily achieving 200-400 without such limited resources.

And as far as I understood it, that is also as intended in D&D really: fighter types are there to kill the mooks and stand in front of the mages so the squishies don't get killed, until they reach the end of the mission which is where the mage then can unload his most powerful spells very quickly to apply a lot of hard to avoid damage on the boss. Fighters also can't go on forever and ever because they have limited HP and may catch status effects that require healing. If fighters DO apparently go on forever slashing things left and right and never needing rest, then something's wrong with the encounter design.

Apart from those two archetypes there's also the healer, i.e. cleric, which was unfortunately modified at some point to turn into a warrior superior to the fighter because from what I've read WOTC found that people didn't want to play "healbitch". :P This opens the can of worms known as self-buffing spellswords, which are very very hard to design "fair" encounters against I've found, hence the need of big hammers like anti-magic zones to make sure the "classic" fighters still have a place.

[*ovarf]

Or you could look at it like this. If your character is wanting to be entirely self-sustaining. Better unequip those magic items, because they wern't made by you. You must be living off the scraps of mages in that case too! :P

Asking a mage to put a spell in a potion for you is alot easier to achieve than asking for an enchanter.

Your character is in a social world, and in order to become more powerful. He has to interact with others, just like everyone else.

You're already aware what you're going to be facing, Except if a DM is spawning monsters on you for shits and giggles. Drink the potion prior to engaging.

thank you for fathering my point. casters are the all powerful beings that allow the lesser classes to exist by their grace.

I've played caster and even a poorly made one can buff themselves to the point where they can out fight a fighter (with a arcane caster its a little more tricky but still doable)
and sure non casting melee types might have to rest half as often but with there being unlimited rest on the server in almost any area i cant say that's too big of a draw back.

your not going to convince me that casters have it oh so hard because i don't see any of them begging to get taken along on a boss run just so they can leach some exp.

your the one that soloed the new area that by game mechanics should have taken 2 people just to get to the boss so I really don't want to hear how hard it is for casters to just do whatever they please here.

This is not personal attack (your one of the few casters that lets me tag along and leach exp but I fundamentally disagree with you position of make a better build if you want to hang.) I think that non casting / non stealth builds traditionally had a roll in D&D that no longer exists in the game as implemented.


*edit* almost forgot who do you have to interact with as a caster? sure you can let a meat shield tag along and it makes things maybe slightly easier but do you need them (no)

This is my whole point non casters HAVE to interact with casters but casters can choose weather they want to or not and it makes little to no difference to them at all. where as if they don't interact with us we are completely dead in the water.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

What I personally hate most in non-casters. They have absolutely nothing to do during combat <,< you practically click them to attack and watch. I wish they had more feats that makes it worthwhile to take different kind of fighting styles... like holding single handed weapon in one hand and no shield, there just is no reason to do it at all currently. Dual flails, nope... can't do :P I can understand it's difficult, but wish there was at least feat which opened the choice, maybe even some chained weapon special feats. Shield bash? (there is feats for that, but they don't work since Obsidian probably was intending to make those, but never added entirely. Same for riding feats really.)

Things like knock down/whirlwind that makes them feel like having something to do during combat more than click attack and waiting the monsters to be dead :P that's really most I ever wish for noncasters... before that, I just can't play them because they have no options at all other than charge and hit stuff (or stand and shoot stuff).

My opinion is that if there were more options for non-casters to do during combat, they'd be more appealing to people and same time would likely get more balanced. :P

[*Product of Void]

I do not think its Immunity folks want. It is more of a chance.

like someone pointed out even a pure fighter with 30 str they will fail. even with ac 50 you will get hit.

A save, a decrease in numbers a CHANCE to actually not get stuck for either monsters or players is not such a bad idea.

Flesh to stone has a save. There is another version that does not though still requires casting Avasculate 1-3 times. Even there is a chance to run up and stop it or use potions to heal.


Immunities are class killers, Insta loose spells kinda boring.

[*The_Tarot]

I do not think its Immunity folks want.  It is more of a chance.

like someone pointed out even a pure fighter with 30 str they will fail.  even with ac 50 you will get hit.

A save, a decrease in numbers a CHANCE to actually not get stuck for either monsters or players is not such a bad idea.

Flesh to stone has a save.  There is another version that does not though still requires casting Avasculate 1-3 times.  Even there is a chance to run up and stop it or use potions to heal.


Immunities are class killers,  Insta loose spells kinda boring.

It has a save in the form of opposed roll. Which can be raised via stat items. I agree the check should be performed every round on Forceful Hand.

A Fighter with 30 Strength has a 10 Modifier, The Hand has a 14.

But introducing a saving throw is a sure way to make the spell completely useless. Like every other spell that has a DC because of how absurdly easy it is to raise all saves. Everything stacks (Up to +20) and shouldn't.

What I personally hate most in non-casters. They have absolutely nothing to do during combat <,< you practically click them to attack and watch. I wish they had more feats that makes it worthwhile to take different kind of fighting styles.

Agreed. Click, Auto-attack, is boring. Someone needs to introduce the classes and abilities from Tome of Battle.

thank you for fathering my point. casters are the all powerful beings that allow the lesser classes to exist by their grace.

I've played caster and even a poorly made one can buff themselves to the point where they can out fight a fighter (with a arcane caster its a little more tricky but still doable)
and sure non casting melee types might have to rest half as often but with there being unlimited rest on the server in almost any area i cant say that's too big of a draw back.

your not going to convince me that casters have it oh so hard because i don't see any of them begging to get taken along on a boss run just so they can leach some exp.

your the one that soloed the new area that by game mechanics should have taken 2 people just to get to the boss so I really don't want to hear how hard it is for casters to just do whatever they please here.

Hard, No. Casters have it easy, but so do melee if they use their head and utilize what they have available to them. When I go to Death of Innocence with you. It's you doing all the work.

Yes, I abused Game Mechanics to solo the new area, when it was deemed unsoloable, It's my job to harrass Ceremorph.