Golem Master Golem Bonuses

[*rapsam2003]

I think the only reason you would play a golem master is if you suffered from chronic narcolepsy. The class is dull as dish water and the only upside is that it gets a cool summon who can play the game for you until you wake up.

I'm fairly certain the implication of a Golem Master is that you have other classes, so it isn't boring in that sense. The PrC itself has 1 purpose, and one purpose only: making golems. And that's fine.

Edit: And Golem Master does advance spellcasting by 4/10. Which is fair, because some of the golems are ridiculously good. Some are ok. But it's a give & take.

[*Gazoo]

I don't see how it's any more boring than most other builds around here that almost purely focus on AB/AC, regardless of the build. Even DC casters.

I remember that GM was repeatedly asked for by a large number of the player base, prior to its creation.

[*TheShadowWithen]

I would Like for Golem Masters to get something like, The golems they make count as the next higher HD based on Ranks so that Masters with a Small LA (3 or less) can still get the stronger Golems, so the class isn't gimped hard by the LA, even in there ability to make golems to sell (i know they get the magical buff to HD but i mean the Base HD buff at say needing full 10 for it or something, which would let ECL3 races get the max golems and let ecl 0 ones get them a little sooner, Given it is a HUge investment

[*Sinlinara]

LA races do not need any help being Golem Masters. Having 33 Skill Ranks is one of the few things that a non-LA race has over their LA friends who get special abilities, racial PRCs, and plenty of stat bonuses.

LA Races are still more than welcome to take the PRC if they want, but not being as good at it as a 0-ECL character is one of the prices that they pay for their race.

[*Neutral Zone]

Ah, guess I misread that. Whoops. :rolleyes:

[*PenguinNinja]

I've been considering a way to make a melee golem master for a long time, as the idea of a fighter fighting with his golem sounds pretty cool to me IMO. It's just kinda tricky.

[*Strawberry Jam]

Well 0 ECL races also get these bonuses

(class+int) *3 skill points
a bonus epic feat
+1 to an ability score
(class+con+toughness) *3 hp
an extra class slot
+1 or +2 saves
+2 or +3 bab
+1 or +2 epic DC
+ any class feats
+3 effective caster levels (more if prc isn't full progression)

on top of the extra skill rank maximum, and whatever bonuses their race gives for free

[*TheShadowWithen]

Exactly, given the huge investment golems are and the loss of casting levels from both the class and ecl, it seems fair they can at least get the full golems, since there caster levels will be lagging significantly behind with a class that gives nothing but a companion that can perma die if your not careful. Not to mention the cost of mataeials

[*Gazoo]

I know you are just playing Devil's Advocate SJ,

but I'd predict, were all ECL3 races to instead have everything taken away and be simply made full 30, there would be very few taking the monster races.

Except to claim silly, non-NWN2 RP DCs and abilities, much like they do now on some of their character descriptions.

_______________________________________________________________________________________
1. Further, to be truly picky and simplistic, let's examine some of these benefits and first eliminate some of the trivial bonuses:

(class+con+toughness) *3 hp
-almost always overshadowed by mutliple stat increases of the ECL3, DR, and/or regen. Possibly significant to melee but never enough to be significant to casters.

+1 or +2 saves
-almost not worth considering...+20 cap is easily reachable on ScoD

+1 or +2 epic DC
- mitigated by stat bonuses if selecting for build

+1 to an ability score
-almost always overshadowed by mutliple stat increases of the ECL3

+ any class feats -
a bonus epic feat
-- overshadowed if we consider stat bonuses to be Epic feats..., not to mention all the unique multiple bonus racial feats that are quite good (DR/resistances/regen/Mutli-attack/auras/etc) and also unavailable to ECL0

an extra class slot
- this is only the case only if they don't take the associated monster class, which usually offers multiple stacking bonuses for the race, costs no extra LA, and is not available to 0ECL races
______________________________________________________________________________

2. That leaves, in all practicality, the benefits of the ECL0:

+3 effective caster levels (more if prc isn't full progression)
2-3 BAB (often completely mitigated by stats, if melee)

(class+int) *3 skill points -> The was Sinlinara's point = skills.

Further, on SCoD this is one of the few skill targets besides spot, hide, ms, and tumble, and general crafting, that anyone invests significant skill points in as a priority (except maybe spellcraft for counterspell).



Compared to the many benefits/abilities of the ECL3+ race. Plus ECL special races and PRCs are often given more skill pts/lvl than standard classes, and adding to that, int bonuses also equate to more skill points.

TLDR: Really?
___________________________________________________________________________

Anyways, I believe the OP was asking about golem stats. Back to that.

[*Strawberry Jam]

Well gazoo the point is a fair is fair equal comparison of the bonuses that the two paths have. Imagine if you had to convert those bonuses from leveling into a 3 ECL race.

For example the con bonus assuming 16 con bonus and d6 class with roughness nets you 30 hp for 3 levels. This is the same as +2 con or a feat, more on a high hp progression.

The epic saves are class saves so the bonus isn't counted to the +20 cap, each +1 to save is worth maybe 30% of a +2 ability bonus. Lets say two low one high that's maybe 4 saves total so roughly another +2 ability bonus equivalent.

Lets consider epic DC and bab progression and effective caster level as a single unit, so you have maybe equivalent of +4 to an ability bonus.

Lets parcel the +1 ability bonus and the extra epic feat together for +2 ability bonus.

Lets say 14 int and a 4 skill class average, gives you 6 skill ranks per level lost (more for high skill characters), so that's about 18 skill points. Okay so about +1 ability bonus, lets package it with multiclass slot and other epic class features for +2 ability bonus total, could be more on certain classes.

ECL basic racial features are about +2 to an ability bonus probably more like a +4 but that's too many details to get into.

So now you have an equivalent of at least +14 ability spread for 3 levels to make up what you lose. Looking at it like that most of what some races get and sometimes all is just to offset what they lose, min maxing them differently to standard options. Oddly enough, this is also roughly about the number d&d designers give +3 la races, fancy that heheh ... did I just reverse engineer d&d? :blink:

So tally the bonus/deficit races get from that total, then spread the remainder (if any) and other features over their prc levels. Compare that stripped down prc to a regular class prc.

We also all know many of the special features races get becomes redundant later on by either itemization, class features, or by spells.

I think most ppl choose special races because either their eyes are bigger than their belly or they're enamored by the concept, the look or the rp.

------------------------------------------------

For golem master I don't think you need to lower the cap tho, if you keep the cap the same but you let skill focus count towards it you can let them advance just the same at the cost of an extra feat deficit. The extra hd actually impacts how well it survives so I think it's pretty significant.