Terrible Woes Of Playing A Fighter On Sigil

[*Taihou]

The man in that film was not a badass because he just happened to pick up 1 level of a class that didn't even make sense, like 1 level of Shadowdancer. From a real world perspective, training as a thief, when one is a specialized warrior...that doesn't work. You won't be great at either role; you'll be average at both. The hero in that scene spent years training to become that good at combat. He didn't let anything distract him from his goal of having a disciplined mind and body.

That is sophistics.

No less so than your reasoning. You're the one who tried to say, "Look, here's a hero in a movie." and seemed to discount the whole reason why the hero in a martial arts film would be a badass. You applied faulty logic in an attempt to prove your point first, friend.

Simply thou tryst to take my example and criticize it from perspective of one particular case of powerbuilding. This is worng path.

More so, that my point is, that simply - some people have "average builds", while others have "powerbuilds" and that's it. World, even digital one needs both.

It is pointless to argue whether IRL or film character has could be interpreted as one with "one level in class X for sake of feats" and thus it was nay my intention. Fact is, that ones are beyond others by power and that's all..

[*Born2BeWild]

i am kinda lost here, what is powerbuild? any build with 1 lvl dip? like 29 bard 1 fighter or when someone make build that dos't make sence in rp way? like 15 paladin 15 rogue

[*Jelkia]

Then justify why you would take Cleric 1 or Shadowdancer 1, specifically for the feats offered or the gear available. I'll wait for your "valid RP reason". Good luck finding one.

Devout follower ah Mask. Rogue levels. Dip ah Cleric. Dip ah Shadow Dancer. Temple Robber. Easy.

Lotsa fun ta play too. ^.^

[*rapsam2003]

Simply thou tryst to take my example and criticize it from perspective of one particular case of powerbuilding. This is worng path.

Your example was a bad example. I pointed that out, in a ridiculous way, for emphasis.

More so, that my point is, that simply - some people have "average builds", while others have "powerbuilds" and that's it. World, even digital one needs both.

Justify this in terms of RP, not in terms of "the world isn't fair". No one is denying some builds will be more powerful than others in a pure combat role. That's expected. But THAT is besides the point. The point is, why would specifically cheesing the game system, just because NWN2 allows it, be encouraged?!

i am kinda lost here, what is powerbuild? any build with 1 lvl dip? like 29 bard 1 fighter or when someone make build that dos't make sence in rp way? like 15 paladin 15 rogue

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming :

Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems, particularly video games, boardgames, and role-playing games, with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie. Due to its focus on the letter of the rules over the spirit of the rules, it is often seen as unsporting, un-fun, or unsociable. This behaviour is most often found in games with a wide range of game features, lengthy campaigns or prize tournaments such as massively multiplayer or collectible games.

[...]

See the link for more details.

Devout follower ah Mask. Rogue levels. Dip ah Cleric. Dip ah Shadow Dancer. Temple Robber. Easy.

Lotsa fun ta play too. ^.^

A devout follower of Mask would probably pick up more than 1 level of cleric. (And the reason would NEVER be, for the sake of EDM, because rogues don't have class synergy with Charisma.) And they definitely, from a theme standpoint, pick up more than 1 level of shadowdancer.

[*Whitefly]

Keep in mind that classes don't mean much on SCoD either - your class represents your abilities, it doesn't define your character in solid terms. I'm not a rogue, wizard, enhanced illusion specialist, shadowdancer, I'm an illusionist who uses the shadowy nature of her magic to help in sneaking around. I'm not a wererat monk/spirit shaman, I'm a person who has lived in self-imposed isolation with a strong focus on control over mind and body, and during that time I attracted the interest of natural spirits and began communing with them.

If you try to be too literal with the mechanics, your character just looks like a spreadsheet rather than a person.

[*Taihou]

i am kinda lost here, what is powerbuild? any build with 1 lvl dip? like 29 bard 1 fighter or when someone make build that dos't make sence in rp way? like 15 paladin 15 rogue

There is major misconseption, that "name of a class" is a sentence. It is nay.

"Rogue" simply represents a character, who is utilizing stealth and diversion warfare tactics to achieve his goal. Thus it can be whatever: scout, guerilla, ninja spy, vigilante etc. It does nay tell anything about his intentions, motives or lifestyle, just his skills. Can a paladin be using stealthy warfare? Well, an agent of religious order or justiciar may be such.

"Fighter" is well, one who fights: soldier, knight, mercenary, marksman, guard

"Spirit Shaman" is simply one, who communicates with spirits, which could in some cultures be actually fully supplementing priests and be regarded as such, including having clergy titles.

And so on.

If one has 1 lvl of shadowdancer(or put any other class with good feats on 1st lvl) it simply means, that IC he has trained for this ability it gives. As simple as that.


rapsam2003, and why shouldn't? Just take it as fact and get over it. And if do nay like it here, find another server, where rules are more to thine liking (BGTSCC for example).

[*rapsam2003]

If you try to be too literal with the mechanics, your character just looks like a spreadsheet rather than a person.

This, I would argue, is one of the problems with powerbuilding. Your character IS a spreadsheet that just happens to have the best, most useful abilities that work in synergy with the build.

There's no balance to it. There's no consideration of whether you might take a "suboptimal" spell for roleplay reasons. A powerbuild just consider power, and power alone.

Edit: I'd really appreciate it if people stop arguing semantics. Ugh. It bogs the whole discussion down.
Also, the idea of "well, my odd PC is a special case that should get all the benefits and no penalties ever"...no, that's you being a selfish person. As with any game system, there should be a striving for balance within the server here. The goals of the server, which are stated very well on the wiki, should be emphasized.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

Well if you look at the build rule closely, it does say this part in the end: "General rule of thumbs to us is that if in build it's not prevented by mechanics then it can be done." but there's no guarantees or promises that the said mechanics couldn't be changed. Designing via mechanics than manual governing is just generally speaking more efficient.

Though I'm in general agreement about maintaining a lack of manual and arbitrary "anti-powerbuilding" rules, but at the same time I do think that there are benefits in coming up alternatives to the common phrase "well that class is too powerful, so we can't add interesting things to it", personally I'm far more willing to exchange capabilities for the purposes of making things more interesting. And yes, there are feats, classes and whatever that are put under constant scrutiny as to whether or not they deserve additions, and personally I feel in many cases those can be a real shame.

And actually the whole thought about gishing "problem" is a valid one for designing perspective. It's more or less taking the best of two worlds, you get the best of casters (buffs) and the best of non-casters (big and mean sword with which you solve your problems while it doesn't run out). It just further highlights the issue where non-casters can't adapt, and the casters can't blast their way through. The problem isn't so much gishes, the problem is that not becoming a gish is less optimal, meaning that dedicating to one or the other is actually being "worse off".

Less carrot and stick line of thought, and rather more "is there room for designing additions without tipping the balance?"


Also please, we all know what powerbuilding is. Nobody really needs clarifications to understand what it is, even if everyone are in denial or defensive of all of the cheesy class dips. :lol: But if you really want: sacrificing fluid and natural narrative process in order to achieve mechanical optimization. When people choose mechanical strength over accurate mechanical representation, they're powerbuilding. That rogue 29/shadowdancer 1, yes I'm sorry but you're just as much a powerbuild as is that favored soul 26/blackguard 4, or that fighter 14/RDD 10/BG 5/bard 1. All of these builds are made with optimization in mind, that rogue isn't going to think "well I tried some shadowdancing, but it wasn't for me." no it's that they got all they needed out of the class for the build, now if it was 1 level assassin dip and tried that story, you know what, then I'll believe them. :P

Now I'm not saying that powerbuilding should be frowned upon or that it's prohibited, not at all. It was a design decision to not make arbitrary build restrictions in the beginning since while powerbuilding will happen, it'd happen even with 3 level dip restrictions, just the builds would change minutely to accommodate. It does leave room for completely making IC decisions and mimicing non-existent classes, infact I've built a few characters where I decided that I'd let someone train them and then level up based on their training. They'll suck, but it's very cool for roleplay too.

[*rapsam2003]

rapsam2003, and why shouldn't? Just take it as fact and get over it. And if do nay like it here, find another server, where rules are more to thine liking.

I've already stated why, multiple times. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. If you dislike that RP is emphasized on a RP SERVER, then why don't you find another game or another server?!

Oh, and God forbid that the server staff actually strive for balance within the server. How terrible a notion. Yeah, you're right. Let's just chuck balance out entirely. Let's the powerbuilds get more and more powerful, irregardless of other considerations. /sarcasm

And actually the whole thought about gishing "problem" is a valid one for designing perspective. It's more or less taking the best of two worlds, you get the best of casters (buffs) and the best of non-casters (big and mean sword with which you solve your problems while it doesn't run out). It just further highlights the issue where non-casters can't adapt, and the casters can't blast their way through. The problem isn't so much gishes, the problem is that not becoming a gish is less optimal, meaning that dedicating to one or the other is actually being "worse off".

A "Gish" should really be a tradeoff. I should be forced to sacrifice some of the features of the melee class and some of the features of the caster class. Why? Because I'm also gaining some of the benefits of both classes. It should be a "give and take" situation.

It does leave room for completely making IC decisions and mimicing non-existent classes, infact I've built a few characters where I decided that I'd let someone train them and then level up based on their training. They'll suck, but it's very cool for roleplay too.

Thing is, this isn't really powerbuilding. This is roleplaying. People keep acting like being anti-powerbuilding is all about limiting choices, when it's actually about increasing choices. There are valid roleplay reasons to dip into a class. But, more often than not, people don't come up with any roleplay reasons. They just go, "If I dip into cleric and shadowdancer, I can get this here and that there". People, that's NOT roleplay; that's min-maxing.

[*Taihou]

Well if you look at the build rule closely, it does say this part in the end: "General rule of thumbs to us is that if in build it's not prevented by mechanics then it can be done." but there's no guarantees or promises that the said mechanics couldn't be changed. Designing via mechanics than manual governing is just generally speaking more efficient.

For example out of general courtesy, especially towards those, who had been there for long enough (and way longer, than myself for example), and thus may take this as putting screws on things. As former admin, thou should like no-one other notice, that server has been running for five long years without need for such restrictions and, believe me, will just finely live as much and longer without them.