Disclaimer For Large Folk

[*DigitalDragoon]

2. I wanted to allow huge and medium dragons.

Could we get models for small and tiny dragons for younger ages..?

[*Sinlinara]

2. I wanted to allow huge and medium dragons.

Could we get models for small and tiny dragons for younger ages..?

I actually would very, very much like to play a super tiny dragon babs. :D

[*Strawberry Jam]

I would like a wyrmling amethyst dragon as a familiar for my psion yep.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

It's going to keep happening again and again, I mean this thread already got booted up for the second time, and then it's going to get a third wave later on, and after that a fourth one. Excessively large models do not really add to the roleplaying experience, what you will have are illusionary "impressive" massive and actually, just as, if not more so, squishy things. Who then get butt hurt when people don't respect them just because they spent few seconds casting either enlarge person or selecting a race that happens to be massive. And why don't people like to respect that?

Because it's "cheating", and let me clarify that since I'm hearing all the objections through the window, it's not cheating in the eyes of rules, you have not broken rules, but it is "cheating" in social structure sense. You are trying to skip the "respect is an earned trait" and assume that people should be at fault for not respecting the massive entities since they had already chosen to disrespect the existing social structure, for the umpteenth time as if they were somehow rare and mythical beasts after you just had a dinner with five of them half an hour ago.

And the massive golems, giants and whatevers putting enlarge on themselves are just the same. Because somehow being giant isn't giant enough, and it doesn't give them any more prestige socially speaking, more likely it'll just get them funny looks about how impractical being so huge is.

I just don't really think that there's any roleplay benefit being excessively huge. They can already become substantially larger than normal things, and that I feel is sufficient for roleplaying and representation. They really don't need to become ten times larger than everything else, since the mechanics aren't well suited for all of that, and roleplay doesn't really get improved by it. People just need more perspective on sizes, a dragon doesn't need to be the size of a house to "deserve respect", a giant doesn't need to be tall as a tower to do it either, they're already a towering form in comparison to humans. Iron golems as well, they're already tons of metal, an enlarged golem would weight enough to start to destroy the streets just by walking, heck normal iron golem would probably suffice to that already. Just keep remembering that if you're already large, you don't need to go huge.

[*Vault 101]

I just don't really think that there's any roleplay benefit being excessively huge. They can already become substantially larger than normal things, and that I feel is sufficient for roleplaying and representation. They really don't need to become ten times larger than everything else, since the mechanics aren't well suited for all of that, and roleplay doesn't really get improved by it. People just need more perspective on sizes, a dragon doesn't need to be the size of a house to "deserve respect", a giant doesn't need to be tall as a tower to do it either, they're already a towering form in comparison to humans. Iron golems as well, they're already tons of metal, an enlarged golem would weight enough to start to destroy the streets just by walking, heck normal iron golem would probably suffice to that already. Just keep remembering that if you're already large, you don't need to go huge.

I am in total agreement, but I recently changed to playing a massive dragon just because I want my claws and fangs to be my main weapon but the bite (Dragons two handed weapon) is so miserable compared to crafted gear or the end game purple named weapons.

Is it powergamerish to want a better bite? Probably, but I like my one and only character, who happens to be a fighter based character to be able have a nice main weapon.

After talking to a handful of dragon players about it, it seems it would be better if we just told people if they want to play a dragon they are young adults, without a lair or great hoard. The kinds of dragons who might adventure. We could scale their size to their breeds and just give out one size of bite and claw for all of them.

Its weird how we give players something then complain they use it. How did anyone not know there would be a flood of titan dragons once they were allowed in game? If we dont want giant dragons in the bazaar lets just get rid of them and just offer 'young bucks' as dragons PCs

We tell people they can not play Balors, and we dont let them play dracoliches. We even tell people they can not be from the modern day, nor can they play demigods. Maybe we should say titanic dragons belong in that catergory?

Just stick is all with the 'Large' size but give us the 'Huge' Dragons bite and claw set up... please? I will keep playing an obnoxious large dragon while that silly stun power is taking up a slot on the Large dragons bite, but I would rather be a sane size for fittitng on the screen.

[*Whitefly]

I am in total agreement, but I recently changed to playing a massive dragon just because I want my claws and fangs to be my main weapon but the bite (Dragons two handed weapon) is so miserable compared to crafted gear or the end game purple named weapons.

Is it powergamerish to want a better bite? Probably, but I like my one and only character, who happens to be a fighter based character to be able have a nice main weapon.

Okay so, I was gonna' go off on a huge tangent about this, but I'll cut it down and just say this: multiattack adds a colossal boost to your ab, it pretty much doubles your damage output in the general case, so don't be afraid to grab a creature weapon and get biting. If you want a more thorough explanation, just ask me with a PM and I'll go into the details, but suffice to say, thinking your bite/claw is worse than purple weapons is the worst reason to not make a character.

[*Vault 101]

In short, in summary, tl;dr, creature weapons are awesome, don't be deceived by purple weapon stats, multiattack is your new god. Don't be shy about making a huge dragon, you don't even need to dual-wield to get a huge benefit out of this stuff, it works really well with power attacks because most monsters don't have really high AC.

I am well aware of the math.

Having my main weapon provided for me with a daze attack that takes up space where a decent customization could go is more than a little annoying. Then I am left with only one more thing to uprade or work on it and that pretty much has to be the enchancement bonus. Even if you get special material bonus for something like Tantlhor that too takes up one of your modification spots.

But then if you make a big dragon big enough to get the decent bite... it -sucks- because then you are one of those doofs playing a giant dragon without the stats to really be a giant dragon. Even at level 27 you arent up to par for the size of beast you are playing

I am trying to say big dragons suck, K? having them in the marketplace, or bumping in to one grinding in hallways -way- to small to suspend disbelief for seeing them down there crawling after were rats. Every bit of it sucks and Mr Os complaints only scratch the surface.

I am wanting the giant dragons -removed- not sharped up with some helpful number crunching.

[*Alersia]

1. Balancing has to happen at a certain point. Would we allow "Wyrms" to be played with proper stats Sigil would become a world of dragons. Nothing else would exist.

2. I wanted to allow huge and medium dragons to provide dragonic roleplay opportunities like fostering a dragon, to make dragons not relly on enlarge person when they want to play a dragon of certain age.

3. Dragons got alternate form so the bazaar is not swarmed by huge dragons. Per PnpP only a few subtypes of dragons would have got it.

If huge dragons continue to be an issue and the DM team tells me I could change the 2da entry and make all huge dragons large size and ban the option of playing huge. But restricting roleplay is never something I like to do.

4. Creature weapons follow a pattern and changes to creature weapons only happen to "all Creature weapons".

It was a decision by the DM team to make creature weapons not as good as purples. If you want them improved, make a new thread about it.

5.

We tell people they can not play Balors, and we dont let them play dracoliches. We even tell people they can not be from the modern day, nor can they play demigods. Maybe we should say titanic dragons belong in that catergory?

I supported medium, large and huge dragons. Titanic dragons arent among them.

6.

Who then get butt hurt when people don't respect them just because they spent few seconds casting either enlarge person or selecting a race that happens to be massive. And why don't people like to respect that?

I thought of lowering "enlarge person and rightous might" scaling (as a side note).

[*Darkrob]

And as we speak, a full sized Dragon takes up space beside the firepit in Khazeets. It's unlikely everyone is ever going to cooperate willingly.

[*Vault 101]

If huge dragons continue to be an issue and the DM team tells me I could change the 2da entry and make all huge dragons large size and ban the option of playing huge. But restricting roleplay is never something I like to do.

We restrict role play all the time for the improvement of the game. Again we dont let people play Balor, or New Yorkers. We can tell them they cant play titanic dragons too, and it will be alright. No other server allows dragon characters at all, so it isnt like we are stifling people here.

When someone uses wands to make themselves bigger and insists they are some old dragon we simply treat them like a young dragon claiming to be older using magics to make himself bigger.

Because if we dont say no to that the next step is the huge dragon casting Enlarge Person on itself and claiming to be even older still.

In theory it could be nice to play a child dragon and be mentored... but it could also be nice to play a child human and we arent allowed to play children humans. No reason we can not RP mature dragons like we are expected to play mature elves or humans.

And as we speak, a full sized Dragon takes up space beside the firepit in Khazeets. It's unlikely everyone is ever going to cooperate willingly.

Just wanted to post this again, nothing to add to it