Stalwart Defender Changes

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I'm definitely all for the 30 second cool down.

I used the defensive stance even earlier, because it doesn't lower AB. Now it also grants immunity to knock down which alone is a great benefit on its own against some foes (blockers for one). I mean obviously I'll abuse the heck out of it, if I can and feel no remorse. But I think it's a case of power creep considering all the other additions to the class, and few others will ever admit it even if it's to the benefit of their own characters, like it is to mine.

Including that the DR was changed from DD damage reduction to barbarian damage reduction, likely with deliberate intent so that the feat Greater Resiliency could be utilized also. I mean sure, it's only 1 DR more for the exchange of one feat. And that stacking mode benefits is just one feature. But you also get invigorating challenge and ultimate bulwark, and tower shield profiency. It just seems that also having modes stack is a tad unnecessary.

[*Clangeddin]

The DR was changed to Barbarian DR because the old stalwart defender DR is hardcoded to scale only with the old stalwart defender class, so it wouldn't raise past 3 DR. The Greater Resiliency is a "collateral effect" that makes nearly no difference, +1DR (going from 6 to 7 or from 15 to 16, it's not noticeable in any way) and it costs one feat that is usually better spent elsewhere, except "pure" (well, almost) fighter builds.
Tower shields are available to everyone, they just need to spend a feat or get a fighter level, they're just not forced to do so anymore, since I thought it was a bit silly that the Warpriest could get tower shields and the Stalwart defender couldn't.
The stacking is not unnecessary, it helps, and I have a feeling that even with it, Stalwart Defenders are behind ultimate monk/druid AC builds.
In the end we're talking about a 4 AC difference for going through a bunch of code changes, which, I repeat, may even not be possible, because while I could (and quite frankly I'm not even sure if this is possible either) code defensive stance to cancel Improved Expertise, how do I code Improved Expertise to remove Defensive stance since it's hardcoded? Or stealth, or all other combat modes as well.
And for what gain? To reduce the maximum AC of stalwart defenders by 4? With the risk of "frauding" people who already built the character with ICE and defensive stance and be forced to rebuild? Seriously, I refuse.

[*Mander]

I'm loving it, non-magic using fighters can actually tank for once.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I don't think pointing at the most AC potent class and saying "That one is still better" is a particularly good argument in general. The class already had a great potential to defense and I don't think it required nearly as much boost as it got, and they could already tank before too. You forget that they also get AC by their levels too, so it's not just +4 from the defensive stance.

It's a massive boost from a single class that was picked even earlier.

[*Mander]

Saying only the one class should get high tier AC isn't much of an argument either. More options for a build is better.

[*Clangeddin]

The class was not popular at all before and saying you picked it doesn't mean that "generally" it was picked. I picked it up too for RP reasons and that's it, but it had no tanking potential and generally sucked, there were a lot of better options out there (generally involving casters...). Heck, the Pale Master was a better tanking class than the Stalwart Defender, that's how bad it was. That's why it got a "massive" boost.
The +4 is the boost compared to before, that's the maximum possible AC difference between pre buff and post buff. Everything else is the same on the AC department.
I'm not going to debate this any further, I'm not changing the stackability of Defensive Stance and that's final, even if AO itself comes down and tells me to change it, it'll have to do it on his own (and good luck getting around Obsidian's hardcoding).

[*Tomekk]

Since the lack of spellcasting features block it from being taken with any caster class, I don't see it being a real problem... as Mander said, non-magic users can finally do what they're supposed be also good at, tanking.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

No need to get so emotional over something like this. :P There's also some super easy workarounds that can solve this easily. Like say, making the benefit from defensive stance function differently... which has been demonstrated to be possible with the already made changes.

Biggest obstacle for people picking stalwart defender was really nothing to do with its lacking defensive capabilities, I mean they weren't supposed to be invulnerable, it's the lack of reliable damage source. Tanks that don't do damage aren't appealing to play, but that's an issue solved by entirely different means. Also their tanking capability was already increased by a ton with the fixing of improved uncanny dodge, that was a massive boost alone even on the base stalwart defender. I practically became immune to rogues and assassins, because they just couldn't deal enough damage without sneak attacks. 15 DR wasn't too shabby either, made sure a large number of foes weren't a threat. Now they'll mitigate even more damage on top of that with Ultimate bulwark, sure those bonuses don't seem much alone, but it all adds up.

[*shadowblizmasta]

So they'll be super hard to kill while having a super hard time to kill things. It's not really an issue when you compare them to Palemaster fighter/wizard builds who are hard to kill and have a lot of damage potential, or druids who are hard to kill and have a ton of spells, and do a pretty solid amount of damage with their buffed selves and their buffed pet, or any number of other builds. All it's really done is make Stalwart Defenders the king of defense. A ten PrC investment based solely around defense should outdo PrCs that only have defense as almost an afterthought, and it really should outdo pure classes who have a ton of other abilities on top of defense.

The biggest obstacle to no one picking the PrC before was the combination that it was pretty shitty at doing its namesake on top of being shitty at doing damage. Making them the supreme defenders actually makes them somewhat worthwhile to take along, but all in all it's better to just take another EDM, or Smiter, or HiPS character, or any kind of spellcaster than a Stalwart. Nerfing them back down would just solidify them as being an option that isn't really an option.

[*Mr_Otyugh]

One thing that irks me is that the defensive stance has a 20 second cool down... mind you not so much that it has a cool down, but rather if you click it, you're forced to stay 20 seconds there before you can move again. Would it be possible to have it initiate 20 second cool down when you toggle it off instead? Granted you can also keep your other modes on at the same time, giving you a high advantage, so maybe it should cancel other modes as well? Because that's a massive AC boost.