coyotesage,Sep 9 2015 wrote: It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.
I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.
Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015 wrote: It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.Â
I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.
Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.
It doesn't have to break down at all. I've run many pen and paper campaigns using the basic d&d 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th and 5th edition rules without requiring alignments and there has never been a problem. Fully realized characters are way too complicated for the simple alignment system to properly categorize a person that they really aren't even worth using. It just all depends on how you look at it I suppose.
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015 wrote: It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.Â
I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.
Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.
Well it really is in some sense a debate about metaphysics. Because while I can't play a Lawful Good Succubus or a Succubus Paladin, I can play a Succubus who acts for all intents and purposes as Lawful Good and can be nearly any other class. It seems to be established that the only thing that's being limited is the mechanical use of alignments, not the policing of character personalities.
I agree... but that's also kind of my point. Fully realized character. It doesn't seem like any of the fallen celestials or redeemed fiends are that at all. They're just being different, that isn't a concept. They aren't taking into account any of the psychology or society of those creatures nor rping any difficulty in being whatever they've changed into. They don't feel remorse, like they should be fitting in but aren't, nothing. The only fallen celestial I knew brazenly made stuff up about the archons and angels all actually being evil (they aren't).
The fiends just were happy go lucky everythings fine and "I'll be damned if you dare tell me I'm anything other than a perfectly holy being".
Well, the system can very much work without alignements, or moreso with alternate alignment systems (I have a soft spot for the Color Wheel) or interpretations (Eberon was mentioned). The thing is alignment is also a very important part of the NWN2 engine, and any alternate system would be very complex to implement.
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015 wrote: It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence. Â
I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.
Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.
Well it really is in some sense a debate about metaphysics. Because while I can't play a Lawful Good Succubus or a Succubus Paladin, I can play a Succubus who acts for all intents and purposes as Lawful Good and can be nearly any other class. It seems to be established that the only thing that's being limited is the mechanical use of alignments, not the policing of character personalities.
This is easily solved. Play your alignment. While the rules are "you don't have to play your character sheet" I have heard from every admin, dm, and em i've asked that this DOES NOT APPLY to your alignment. You can "act" good (as in roleplay) in order to fool people. But you can't select "good" and then stab everyone in the back.
What is on your sheet is your "true" alignment. And evil can act good for a while, or even all the time around select people. Chaos can hold itself in check, and law can have a night of debauchery. Good can have a bad day, even, provided bad day isn't "wanton murder". But if you aren't playing your alignment someone eventually WILL ask what's going on with the character. And if you're answer is "I was circumventing the alignment lock" i would not expect a positive response.
Darkrob,Sep 9 2015 wrote: For me, Good Abyssals and evil celestials simply break the immersion. I've little interest in Demons and devils handing out flowers and I've little interest in seeing Celestials randomly killing innocents. Yes, it's possible but when the city is flooded with them... it completely and utterly ruins it for me.
I'm sorry you feel that way. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about it. The less expected and weirder, the more I get into it.
I will again argue that playing something a bit outside the norm tends to be more impactful than something so far removed that it's unrecognizable to most people. A properly played exception would not break immersion to me. But I have never seen one. I have seen good humans that happens to look like fiends... which does horribly break immersion.
Darkrob,Sep 9 2015 wrote: For me, Good Abyssals and evil celestials simply break the immersion. I've little interest in Demons and devils handing out flowers and I've little interest in seeing Celestials randomly killing innocents. Yes, it's possible but when the city is flooded with them... it completely and utterly ruins it for me.
I'm sorry you feel that way. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about it. The less expected and weirder, the more I get into it.
I will again argue that playing something a bit outside the norm tends to be more impactful than something so far removed that it's unrecognizable to most people. A properly played exception would not break immersion to me. But I have never seen one. I have seen good humans that happens to look like fiends... which does horribly break immersion.
Well there's no arguing taste. That's a deeply personal thing that everyone has a right to. My tastes are obviously a bit more eccentric than most. I consider it to be quite a successful session if what happens in game might be something a person on LSD describes as having happened on their acid trip. ;)
It's the expected things that bore me. Oh another evil demon plotting to destroy some devils in the abyss because of the blood war. Yay?
Darkrob,Sep 9 2015 wrote: For me, Good Abyssals and evil celestials simply break the immersion. I've little interest in Demons and devils handing out flowers and I've little interest in seeing Celestials randomly killing innocents. Yes, it's possible but when the city is flooded with them... it completely and utterly ruins it for me.
I'm sorry you feel that way. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about it. The less expected and weirder, the more I get into it.
I will again argue that playing something a bit outside the norm tends to be more impactful than something so far removed that it's unrecognizable to most people. A properly played exception would not break immersion to me. But I have never seen one. I have seen good humans that happens to look like fiends... which does horribly break immersion.
Well there's no arguing taste. That's a deeply personal thing that everyone has a right to. My tastes are obviously a bit more eccentric than most. I consider it to be quite a successful session if what happens in game might be something a person on LSD describes as having happened on their acid trip. ;)
It's the expected things that bore me. Oh another evil demon plotting to destroy some devils in the abyss because of the blood war. Yay?
What you're describing is not odd. I like it a well, but I like that as an NPC. An event. An awesome thing that happened
I don't like it as "Seeing three of these every day". it's no longer special at that point. I love weird and completely ridiculous characters...I just don't think they're appropriate as PCs that people will run into constantly.
