Rebuilding Answers

[*Alersia]

I unterstand how you feel, phantom.

My cat was rejected as follower aswell.

[*zethrenx99]

It wouldn't be so bad if mobs weren't programmed to target lower AC targets unless a closer target is not in combat. Essentially meta-gaming NPCs -,- (ever go to a zone with some invisible resistance activated and all of a sudden that npc doesn't try to cast x spell at you this time?) Even with my large tanky character mobs often avoid me even with the vigorous challenge (like maybe look at me for a round if they are adjacent to me or they don't even care about it at all even though they failed) Or they just attack my team mates anyway with strangely long reach while i sit there in my lonesome stance :C.

Sadly not much you can do against that other then trying to get every character to have HIPS (grose :P) or 60+ ac. and no epic lvl character wants to feel like they are just being dragged through xyz plane by the good graces of people that can actually deal with it via power builds most of the time.

Sadly i don't think a happy middle ground can be reached, and to those who frown upon rebuilds are probably hypocrites or really good at power-building *shrug*

[*Strawberry Jam]

Favored classes I believe are actually a very heavily toned down version of class restrictions for races in the previous edition.

Another big difference to rewards is that table top uses encounter levels, this is cr spread over the party effective level. This allows mobs of low CR creatures to be considered a challenge instead of needing high individual CR. But when the NWN2 experience systems give rewards based on individual CR this makes 10 crazy lizards in Forgotten Plateau less rewarding than maybe one or two demons.

So if you could fix that somehow you could make large groups of lower CR monsters worth more.

@Lucadia on Sigil I think you get more experience per party member.



I also think I remember reading that the differences between the difficulty levels wasn't too big, and gatecrasher is only used to spawn bosses in one or two areas but otherwise planeswalker is almost the same difficulty? Anyone know the specifics?

[*Mick64]

Yes, barring a few exceptions, the only difference between Gatecrasher and Planeswalker is that "mini-boss" monsters (Spotter, Frenzier, Defender, etc) spawn more frequently on Gatecrasher.

[*Neutral Zone]

I know I'm late to the topic, but given I was the one referenced in the original post asking about AC, I figured I'd add my two coppers. Wall of text incoming. You have been warned.

Basically, the conversation went like this:
Sharon: We're going to Grand Abyss, wanna join?
Zephon: Sure! I can tank!
Esther (Me): *not going* Uhh... What's your AC?
Zephon: 66 with divine shield
Esther: Oh, pffft. You'll be fine then.

Basically I was just concerned the whole party might get TPKed and frustrated. I've seen folks with 50 AC claim they are tanky (And to be fair, they are... Just not on this server.), but such a build, without some serious DR/concealment/epic dodge would get squished pretty quickly in the Grand Abyss, where the Vrocks have +46 AB, and spawn in groups of half a dozen when in parties of 3 or more.

Not sure where rebuilding comes into it though, imho. Only times I've ever seen where folks frown upon rebuilding where it's used to exploit for one reason or another. I do, however, express surprise at the sheer number of times folks rebuild toons (I know a few folks with 12+ rebuilds under their belt for one character alone). Once I get a build planned and sorted, I usually stick with it.

Powerbuilding is indeed a huge problem on this server - there's no balance between classes, or to prevent cheesy 100+ AC nymph builds. And I agree with shadowblizmasta - we shouldn't cater to these builds by providing dungeons specifically for them. Nerf the mobs, make it reasonable for regular builds to do in large groups. If we take away the reason for powerbuilding, it becomes less of a problem. As it is right now, SCoD basically requires powerbuilding to even be considered viable. The Endless Maze is supposed to be a CR 23ish area, but yet only ECL 27+ folks seem to be able to take it on - that right there says there's a problem. One must remember, too that CR in NWN2 does not work the same way it does in PnP. I've done a lot of work on previous servers regarding balance, and charting out what should be reasonable AC/AB/Saves for a given level, as well as the expected min/max values, in order to design mobs that are challenging but not ridiculous. I know the server likes to have a no build restrictions rule, but IMHO I feel it is a necessary thing to prevent exploitative builds. No nymph pale masters, please.

On the topic of difficulty level - there is not a huge difference in difficulty between Cutter and Gatecrasher for most folks. Sure, elites spawn a little more often (including the dreaded frenzier elite, who gets +10 AB on what they normally have), and you get some certain mobs that wouldn't otherwise spawn, but there's plenty of cases where the Clueless mobs are even tougher than the Gatecrasher ones (Death Slaad vs Gray Slaad, for instance. The main problem is the huge experience gain differences. For example, on Planewalker in the Abyss, Lake of Fire, you spawn blue abishai. These mobs are squishy, and they spawn en-masse. A level 20 toon taken them out gets something like 15 a pop. Switch to Gatecrasher, and you get Red Abishai instead. They are just as squishy, gaining maybe +2 AB and AC (bringing them up to the amazingly low total of +20 AB and 30 AC or something miserable like that), but would give 150 a pop. That's ten times as much experience for single rank of change in difficulty level. This is one of those reasons everyone runs around on GC - it's not just double experience. It's a LOT more than that.

In regards to running around the Abyss solo, it's possible to do with only 40 AC. I've done it before. It all depends on your tactics and other preparations. Cornugons have very high AC, but they spend most of their time ignoring you, and many folk waste time trying to take them down first. Erinyes on the other hand, have very high AB, and reasonably high AC - these are the mobs that cut most folk down. And then there's getting surrounded by numerous cambions with their suspiciously high frequencies for rolling 20s, and that they hit for about 40 damage each time. You have to take these things into account when running around - I've had a toon with 50+ AC get knocked down by cambions simply because she couldn't take them down before they rolled enough 20s to down her. Don't get surrounded. Pick your targets carefully. And remember, running is an option! If you're in a party, it might even be beneficial - an enemy trying to chase after you provokes attacks of opportunity from others.

And, last of all, multiclassing penalties. Given that in PnP it is designed to prevent players from taking 1 or 2 levels in a dozen different classes, I'm not sure why they included it in NWN1 and NWN2 when the class limit is three and four respectively. It's just not necessary, and actually punishes folks who want to make their builds more versatile. On one of my old servers, I had removed multiclassing penalties completely.

[*Strawberry Jam]

Nerf the mobs, make it reasonable for regular builds to do in large groups. If we take away the reason for powerbuilding, it becomes less of a problem.

I don't really think they're a powerbuilding epidemic, some examples ppl give are things I only ever really see in theory crafting threads. But I do agree with this part.

If you need 50 AC to require 20's for an enemy to hit then there's no real benefit to having 70 AC. On the other hand the AC on monsters tends to be pretty low and doesn't require a whole lot of offense to be effective. The saves they have on the other hand are pretty high and rule out many spells.


You can also add difficulty to areas by ways of hazards, I know edmaster knows what I mean. Sometimes traps or area effects will dramatically alter the "balance" of encounters. A prime example is the tower inside a no magic zone, planes of fire and ice also do elemental damage, salt blinds on a failed save.

[*Neutral Zone]

If you need 50 AC to require 20's for an enemy to hit then there's no real benefit to having 70 AC. On the other hand the AC on monsters tends to be pretty low and doesn't require a whole lot of offense to be effective. The saves they have on the other hand are pretty high and rule out many spells.

No, there isn't, but the issue is more the huge variation in AB of monsters of equal CR. Erinyes Generals have +35 AB, which can be deadly to players. Meanwhile, the Red Abishai have some +19 and are only two CR lower. And the 70 AC does come in handy in areas where enemies flank you and curse song you, in addition to having 40+ AB. Why we have mobs with higher than +45 AB I don't know. Bosses, even, should not pass +55, but yet we have numerous ones with well over that.

However, only a super-specialized tanking build, using Improved Combat Expertise, should be able to reach ~70 AC IMHO. Yet, we have builds easily reaching that without even focusing in being a tank, simply by playing cheesy class combinations and the like. Balance is all out of whack.

As for monsters having high saves? Pffft ahahahaha! We have CR 27 mobs with 4 or 5 will. 'Nuff said there.

[*rapsam2003]

No, there isn't, but the issue is more the huge variation in AB of monsters of equal CR. Erinyes Generals have +35 AB, which can be deadly to players. Meanwhile, the Red Abishai have some +19 and are only two CR lower.

I suspect the reason for this, in the background, if you will... is to promote party play. If everyone can take on the Erinyes General (without HiPS or an actual dedicated tank build) without batting an eye, why would you party up with folks? Yes, there's a slight exp increase. And?

[*Strawberry Jam]

We also have some lower cr monsters with 30-35 saves so yeah. Difference is that you have many sources for raising AC and AB but not with raising DC. So yep quite funny stuff.

[*Tomekk]

No, there isn't, but the issue is more the huge variation in AB of monsters of equal CR. Erinyes Generals have +35 AB, which can be deadly to players. Meanwhile, the Red Abishai have some +19 and are only two CR lower.

I suspect the reason for this, in the background, if you will... is to promote party play. If everyone can take on the Erinyes General (without HiPS or an actual dedicated tank build) without batting an eye, why would you party up with folks? Yes, there's a slight exp increase. And?

Because the server's goal isn't to punish soloing (in 95% of areas) or make certain party compositions mandatory?

There's no real reason why the two have such a massive gap between them, given the CR difference.