question regarding an rp situation

[*Lost and not Found]

No offense to Lost and Found... but this I just don't understand.

Basically, whenever you use the skill intimidate, there is a DC to beat. Things tend to go smoothly when there is a DM around deciding on such matters. But for most times there are no dungeon masters around and players are left on their own.

Bluff is countered with a sense motive check. With the lack of the said skill I'd say people can freely decide whether they use Spot, Listen and what not to find out if their character believes it, with appropriate modifiers. If someone wants to believe someone, it makes it easier to lie to them.

Diplomacy is a contest between diplomacy skill rolls. The higher roll wins. However, using diplomacy to change opinions should take atleast one minute, ten rounds, because you are explaining why your point of view is correct.

But with intimidate the thing is little bit different. A skill is not used to counter it. The DC which you need to beat comes from:
(1d20) + (character level or Hit Dice) + (targetÂ’s Wisdom bonus [if any]) + (targetÂ’s modifiers on saves against fear)

Of course I'm not against people using intimidate to beat intimidate.
- But I use that formula, which might have some bonuses and penalties according to the situation. It is not something made impossible to beat.

- But I will most likely shrug any requests to roll intimidate skill or will save as those are simply not used as DC for the intimidate skill.

In addition, demanding someone to roll intimidate roll is demanding that person to start intimidating with the said character. And I'm certain you can realise the problem in that.

I'd say the main problem associated with intimidate roll, is that people who use it aren't, in my experience, prepared to face the concequence if their skill roll fails.

And really, intimidation can only go so far.
What do you think happens to a guy who who is pushed to a corner with no way out?
Will he just sit silently in his puddle of extract or will he slash out as an last effort to escape or save something?



Now, to answer some questions:
There are magical items and spells that can grant bonuses against fear, if not immunity. Racial bonuses aren't the only source.

If the drow would be an experienced planar "Dragon Slayer", then yes. Or possibly, if the character in question thinks that there's a plan that's going to succeed against such monstrosity, so that's an another yes as long as things are going according to the plan.

And here we got the the berks who go about intimidating people.
Now, apple chasers get around and thus we can presume that they've met the sort before or at least had experiences that make the barking mutt less intimidating.
- If we look at the formula, all those experiences can be found right there, and you're literally up against all that if you want to intimidate someone.

As for your swade character, I've never thought that being succesfull is one of the definitions set for swade ladies man.

[*[<3]]

People who ignore the weaker or even bad stats on their character sheet, or make up 'illusionary' modifiers of their own to wind out of certain rolls they'd normaly might lose are just that ... bad rp'ers. Oh my god, there it is ... I said it ... but it's true. Fun aside. Personaly I'd say they're not necessarily bad rp'ers but rather people who tend to ignore the rp efforts of other people around them and most of all they might be people who can't stand 'losing' a contest / roll / whatever or see their supposedly 'super' character fail at anything. That again, in my eyes, is bad rp. And thus the circle closes itself.



Just make sure people rp what's on their character sheet and actualy rp any detriments and disadvantages they have imposed upon themselves while focusing on only certain aspects of their powerbuild. 'nough said.

Oh wait ... this can be said about that other thread closeby as well ... :lol:

[*Mr_Otyugh]

I hate skill rolls in RP personally <.< that said, I don't hate losing, I find losing generally producing more roleplay for characters than winning. I just prefer it all roleplayed than seeing "15" or "8" in middle that distracts me from roleplay.

But I won't go in lengths to argue about it.

[*cryptc]

Now granted, none of us want to RP wusses because we have a total of -1 to our Will save (even though we should), so im not asking anyone to run screaming from the room if they fail an intimidate check. Instead im asking you to consider that this peson "has" managed to put the seed of doubt into your character. Suddenly your not so sure if you should mess with him... at least until you know more. Its simply not fair to him as a player and to the game as a whole if you ignore someone elses' selection of skill choices so long as they are RPed well and responsibly. To me, its a form of cheating.

Your mileage may vary... I have great fun rp'ing my extremely low will save halfling not by rp'ing her cowardly (she's in the transcendent order, and not much for thinking about things), but instead rp'ing her as being extremely suggestible... You wouldn't need a charm spell to convince her of something, just need to phrase it right and she'd believe it...

[*Lost and not Found]

Regarding "illusionary" modifiers:

As far as the Dice Bag is concerned, items that only grant save bonuses when certain conditions are met are not included to the save rolls.

So for example; Intimidator intimidates and in return the victim rolls his or her will save. The +4 saves against fear from that magical ring is not included in this roll, so you have to tell the intimidator about it and possibly show it in the barter window. Yet, the intimidator can start arguing that your character wasn't wearing the ring. It's a pickle situation.

As for my Drow and his "illusionary" modifiers against intimidation, well, ask for them when necessary and I'll tell them. We can even start arguing if those are valid or not.

[*[<3]]

Oh, I comletly agree on regular modifiers that would apply, and both 'opponents' in said roll telling each other about those.

Intimidation though does not necessarily mean you're afraid of something, sorry. It also means coercion, bullying and a lot of other factors. ;)

Also an item which gives a bonus to magicaly induced fear would certainly not apply, but that's nitpicking.

Situational modifiers, those coming from items or actual game effects, and everything else both people can agree on are absolutely fine. But trash modifiers people make up for their character to be 'uber' are not.

[*cryptc]

To play devils advocate, magical item that grants bonus vs fear does not strictly help against intimidation rolls. Also, intimidation rolls does not strictly produce a fear effect (except possibly with epic rules, not read up on Epic Level Handbook on that).

I will say though that my position is that people will always disagree on specifics for this, so again I will state that apart from things that are handled in the game engine itself, the players must agree on some system to resolve something (as in both agree, not one saying I rolled this, now you must roll this). If there is no agreement then only game engine related actions may be performed (as modified by other server rules).

There will be no agreement on this, so stop beating a dead horse and just compromise...

[*[<3]]

Lol, we posted simultaneously and said the same things ...

[*cryptc]

An example might go like this:

player1: If you don't get out of my sight I will make you a smear on the pavement
player1 rolls 27 on intimidate
player1 tell to player2: \\would you accept it would get your character scared if he doesn't succeed a will save against dc27?
player2 tell to player1: \\sure, but I have +4 save versus fear, is it ok to add that?
player1 tell to player2: \\sure thing mate
player2 rolls will save 22
player2: You don't scare me! But luckily for you I have other business elsewhere anyways, farewell.
player2 leaves nervous, but not trying to show it.

[*Abby]

Well, I am going to demand quite high intimidate roll to make my Drow to start doubting his own level of skill.

No offense to Lost and Found... but this I just don't understand. Does your drow character have a racial bonus vs. fear? Can he demand a higher DC from a dragon when he comes within range of the frightful presence aura? These aren't magical attacks.. they are simply a representation that this is a terrifying monster that scares the crap out of most people. If he can't demand a bonus vs. a mummy or dragon's fear... why should he then be able to demand an unfair cicumstance bonus against a character who has spent his entire life "training" himself how to read others, and appeal to their fears through subtle intimidation?

Our character sheets "are" our characters. If your Will save is lousy because you dumped all your stats, feats and skills into combat instead of courage, well... then you are not esspecially brave. It doesn't matter if you are good at sword fighting or exceptionally strong at chopping stuff.

Fighters and other melee classes are already far more brave than the average commoner because their Will save increases as they level up. This represents their growing experiance and famliarity with life or death situations. However, a warrior with a low wisdom lacks Will power. He is more inclined to do what he wants, instead of what he must... thats what Will power is... the strength of Will to do what you must.. not what you want. A character with a high Wisdom score or feats may "want" to run for their life when a mummy pops out, or when a clever rogue has him convinced that he's going to have crotch rot if he messes with him.... but he has the stuborn iron will to stick it out and be brave.

Its not fair to those who RP their stats when others dont. If I make a combat machine character with a 4 Charisma, and then RP that im a swave ladies man... how is that fair to a player who sacrificed combat ability in order to be able to RP a swave ladies man by putting points into Charisma instead of strength?

Drow esspecially should be well versed in the subtleties of threats, and might have learned from living among their kind that many are far mor dangerous than they seem. An arrogant drow who underestimates people based on appearance or his own skill wouldn't live long in drow society. If anything, id think drow would be "more" suseptable to Charisma based intimidation because of this, not less.

Though in some ways I disagree, personality skills are voluntary and if you "want" to, you can ignore someone's intimidate, diplomacy and bluff rolls. Though I don't think you should as long as the players has role played the skill and isn't attempting something unreasonable.

I always feel cheated when someone ingores my skill check, because when they use knock down on me, I dont have any choice but to fall on my back.

One last thing in defense of this mode of thought... "we" as players, are not our characters. I may be lousy at bluffing, or even typing, but if my character has a kabillion ranks in bluff... "he" is good at it. And we should at least take this into consideration.

As an example... I myself am fairly knowledgable about medicine and healing, but im not a doctor. Abby on the other hand is. There have been times when ive compaired knoweldge with other healers with Abby, but I don't have the personal knowledge to discribe in depth how to go about performing a triple bypass heart surgery. However, Abby with her +40 to healing does. So sometimes Ill roll my check and then emote something like *Abby explains in detail how you got the disease, and what its symptoms are.*

I can't see any problem with a person using intimidate or even bluff in this manner. Jo Blow could emote *Using a series of shrewed looks into a dark corner and a smile that drips with sinister confidence, I ask you if you're "sure" you want to do draw a weapon on me* and then roll an intimidate check to be opposed by your own intimidate skill or Will save.

Oh and.. yes Paladins of 3rd level are immune to fear. Clerics with the good domain (edit) too I suppose. That means they can never be made to fear anyone. Thoug I suppose you could still make them believe they are badly outnumbered. Paladins may be immune to intimidation, but they arent immune to being bluffed, and if a Paladin thinks you've got a dozen friends about to jump him, he might choose to not throw his life away and wait until you are in more favorable conditions.

Now granted, none of us want to RP wusses because we have a total of -1 to our Will save (even though we should), so im not asking anyone to run screaming from the room if they fail an intimidate check. Instead im asking you to consider that this peson "has" managed to put the seed of doubt into your character. Suddenly your not so sure if you should mess with him... at least until you know more. Its simply not fair to him as a player and to the game as a whole if you ignore someone elses' selection of skill choices so long as they are RPed well and responsibly. To me, its a form of cheating.

Laurk